Low 'E' String Tension Question...

[discreet]

[b]Low 'E' String Tension Question...[/b]

Can't find anything about this, so apologies if it has been covered...

Long story short, I'm finding my low 'E' string a bit 'floppy'. Without changing strings, is it possible to increase the tension somewhat?

I am in correspondence with The Bass Doc on this, but meanwhile, has anyone else covered the subject? What I'm thinking is a steel spacer or washers (or something) to effectively increase the scale of the E string at the bridge by 1cm or so, therefore hopefully increasing its tension. Is this possible? Have you done it? Thanks!

[LiamPodmore]

Increasing the scale of the string will f*ck up with the intonation and therefore lead to tuning problems. I can't think of a way to increase tension without changing strings (If there is, i'd love to hear it, my low B is really annoying) but i'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will pop up with a better explanation.

Liam

[discreet]

[quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1334571432' post='1617643']
Increasing the scale of the string will f*ck up with the intonation and therefore lead to tuning problems. I can't think of a way to increase tension without changing strings...
[/quote]

Thanks for that mate, if it is indeed impossible then I need to know!

[eude]

I believe a sharper break angle over the bridge saddle and nut might help?
Stringing through the body, if it's possible with your bridge, could help at that end and an angled headstock (probably not a viable option) or a string retainer to pull everything towards the headstock might help at the other end.
Making sure your nut is cut probably could help too...

Also, you could maybe just try tighter strings of a the same gauge.
I've used DR strings for a long time, the hex-core ones (lo-riders) are higher tension than the round-core hi-beams and sunbeams.
You could also maybe see if the nice folks at Newtone can wind you a custom set of strings with higher tension...

Eude

[discreet]

I have a Precision with no through-body stringing option. Also, I'm using La Bella FLs... higher-tension La Bellas are like bridge cables, so that's not really an option. Nor are custom strings at the moment!

Given the genre I'm going to be playing, I think I may have to return to roundwounds anyway, which would solve the problem, I think.

Thanks for the comments, though.

[BigRedX]

The thing here is that you are using words with a definite meaning like "tension" when you may actually mean something else like "compliance" or "stiffness". You can't change the tension of a particular string without also changing either its unit mass, length or pitch as these are all related by a mathematical formula. However you can change the compliance (feel) of a string by using tricks like break angles and changing the length of non-vibrating portions of the string behind the nut and bridge.

[Ou7shined]

Yep as the guys are saying, a better break angle might be the solution your looking for.
A string tree aught to do it if the windings on you tuner can't ... but are you wanting to go drilling holes in your bonnie custom headstock?

[chris_b]

Change to fatter strings.

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1334574620' post='1617749']
The thing here is that you are using words with a definite meaning like "tension" when you may actually mean something else like "compliance" or "stiffness". [/quote]
Yes, 'stiffness' would be it.
[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1334588957' post='1618091']
...but are you wanting to go drilling holes in your bonnie custom headstock?[/quote]
No!
[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1334589289' post='1618100']
Change to fatter strings.
[/quote]
Don't want fatter La Bellas. The FLs are about as fat as I'd want to go with these.

I've found a number of matching steel nuts and will give them a go behind the bridge, see if that makes a difference. Thanks for all the comments.

Edited April 16, 2012 by discreet

[bertbass]

I always had this problem with 45-105 strings, when I tried Elite Stadium 50-110, the problem was gone. I also found that I got more of a 'note' on the E with less overtones with the Elites. Good luck.

[discreet]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1334614502' post='1618739']
I always had this problem with 45-105 strings, when I tried Elite Stadium 50-110, the problem was gone. I also found that I got more of a 'note' on the E with less overtones with the Elites. Good luck.
[/quote]

That's very interesting. How does a 110 feel compared to a 105, is it a big difference?

[bertbass]

It dosen't bend as well as a 105 which to me is a bonus. I've been using the 110s for so long now that it's hard to remember what it was like before, however, I've been using the freebie Rotosound set I received to try out and to be honest I've not noticed a lot of difference in feel but this is on another bass so it's not really a true trial. I do remember being amazed at the time how much better the sound was on the E string, in fact on all the strings. I do hit the strings pretty hard and with a pick which may explain a few things and also being a different make of string may be the difference.

My lovely lady, Mrs Bert, bought me 3 sets of D'Addario steel wirewounds strings, 45-105 as a christmas present but I didn't like them, too bright and not enough "note" so I exchanged them for Elite Stadium 45-105 steel wirewounds and these seem good as well although again on a different bass. I still prefer the 50-110 though so I'll go back to them as soon as I can afford it.

[fingerz]

From what I can see there are two options you can try quite easily, assuming that the bass is making the most of it's current set up (ie intonation correct, decent strings, nut correct depth):

- Try a tapered string. This is a string that is thinner at the point it runs over the bridge saddle, meaning you have to raise the saddle and that the pressure point is smaller on the string itself. Both will increase tension slightly.

or

- Shim the neck. THis is only necessary if the whole bridge is set pretty low on all strings and still you have a fairly high action. SHimming the neck will require the bridge saddles to be set higher and increase tension that way. You will have to re-set the intonation if you do this, and if it's not what your bass needs, then it can make it play really badly, so check the set up requires it first. there's loads of guides online if you choose to do this.


Also, just check that your pickup/s are not too far away from the E-string. If the pickups are not balanced against the string profile then this can give the illusion that a string sounds weak or faint in relation to the other strings.


Hope that is some help !

Fgz

[charic]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1334588957' post='1618091']
if the windings on you tuner can't ...
[/quote]

Does more winds = higher tension then? (I like higher tension )

[Pete1967]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334760542' post='1620799']
Does more winds = higher tension then? (I like higher tension )
[/quote]

Not per se, but if you wind from top to bottom of the tuner post it gives maximum break angle over the nut, so you may need a little more string length to reach the bottom of the post. The string is likely to want to naturally migrate to the point on the post that has the least break angle (IME) hence a string tree might be needed to eucourage the string to the right place....

[shizznit]

Does the string feel floppy under your picking finger or fretting fingers? (bare with me...I am going somewhere with this)

[BigRedX]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334760542' post='1620799']
Does more winds = higher tension then? (I like higher tension )
[/quote]

If you mean winds on the tuner post then no. Nothing you do to a string outside of the witness points (nut and bridge) has any effect on the tension. It may have an effect on compliance though. This is why IMO non-angled headstocks are a really bad idea since it's impossible to get a even break angle on every string which leads to inconsistent feel between strings.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='fingerz' timestamp='1334660511' post='1619197']
Try a tapered string. This is a string that is thinner at the point it runs over the bridge saddle, meaning you have to raise the saddle and that the pressure point is smaller on the string itself. Both will increase tension slightly.
[/quote]
Tension is dependent on three things only:

1 String length from bridge to nut. - you can change this by buying a bass with a different scale length.
2 Mass per unit length of string - you can change this by using different strings.
3 Pitch to which the string is tuned - you can change this by tuning to a higher or lower pitch.

Other than those, you cannot change the tension in a string.

Differently manufactured strings do however have different amounts of compliance and so feel more or less elastic under the plucking fingers. Also, lengthening the amount of string beyond the bridge and/or the nut or improving the break angle at bridge and/or nut may have a [i]very small[/i] effect on compliance. None of that can have any effect on tension.

Edited April 18, 2012 by EssentialTension

[EssentialTension]

[url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm[/url]

[BigRedX]

Actually tapered windings at the bridge will result in a very slightly lower tension for a given pitch since the overall mass of the vibrating portion of the string will have been reduced by the amount of the missing windings.

[discreet]

Thanks very much for all the useful info, guys. Turns out my tuner was inadvertently set to 430hz, which obviously didn't help much, and I have restrung the low E to improve the break over the nut somewhat... and also have raised the action [i]very[/i] slightly indeed, the combination of which issues seems to have solved the problem... thanks again for taking the time to post.

Just goes to show how a number of small adjustment issues can make a big difference!

[charic]

[quote name='Pete1967' timestamp='1334761261' post='1620812']
Not per se, but if you wind from top to bottom of the tuner post it gives maximum break angle over the nut, so you may need a little more string length to reach the bottom of the post. The string is likely to want to naturally migrate to the point on the post that has the least break angle (IME) hence a string tree might be needed to eucourage the string to the right place....
[/quote]

Bah! Already tried going all the way to the bottom anyway, oh well!

BRX, it's already got an angled headstock

[BigRedX]

If you have a properly made angled headstock you shouldn't need to be winding loads of string length around the machine heads. From my guitar playing the accepted wisdom is that the amount of string you need to wrap around the machine head post is slightly more than you need to stop the string from slipping. In practice on a bass this works out at 2 turns around the post.

As you know most new strings need to have the excess elasticity stretched out of them after restringing. the string wrapped around the machine head post gives this up much more slowly than rest of the string and the more you wrap around the post the longer a string will take to settle into tune.

Of coures if you plan to string your bass with a set of flats and leave them on for the next 10 or so years this extra day or two of tuning instability is neither here nor there. For those of us who restring on a more regular basis its a bit more important. Other obstacles like string trees also impact in a negative way on tuning stability. This is why I am unlikely to buy any basses which don't have angled headstocks.

[discreet]

Found this in '101 Bass Tips' by Gary Willis...

'A fairly easy way to add tension to the lower strings (B and E) is with a PC board spacer. Slip it over the string before you insert the string through the bridge...'

Might give this a go, out of curiosity... anyone got a 1/4" PC board spacer going begging?

[charic]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1334826234' post='1621783']
If you have a properly made angled headstock you shouldn't need to be winding loads of string length around the machine heads. From my guitar playing the accepted wisdom is that the amount of string you need to wrap around the machine head post is slightly more than you need to stop the string from slipping. In practice on a bass this works out at 2 turns around the post.

As you know most new strings need to have the excess elasticity stretched out of them after restringing. the string wrapped around the machine head post gives this up much more slowly than rest of the string and the more you wrap around the post the longer a string will take to settle into tune.

Of coures if you plan to string your bass with a set of flats and leave them on for the next 10 or so years this extra day or two of tuning instability is neither here nor there. For those of us who restring on a more regular basis its a bit more important. Other obstacles like string trees also impact in a negative way on tuning stability. This is why I am unlikely to buy any basses which don't have angled headstocks.
[/quote]

Yeah, number of winds doesn't really seem to make any difference. Just sort of interested me as a possibility.