NJE Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So I did a gig on Friday, big place so the bass needed to go front of house. I have a MarkBass LMII with DI out and have used it a few times but never with big volume front of house. The engineer was my drummer (froim a different band) and is very experienced and has worked as a sound engineer so I trust his opinion and he generally knows his stuff. The issue basically was that the front of house sound from my MarkBass was shocking and I put this down to the fact that the DI is only post EQ and the EQ was set up for me onstage. My question is a three parter really 1. Do I sell the amp and get another with a better DI with pre/post switch? 2. Do I get a seperate DI/splitter 3. Will a 'outboard' DI be better quality than what amp manufacturers include in their heads? Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. NJE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you're happy with the amp then go for a separate DI, that way you'll have the best of both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 +1, if the amp is good enough for you, then a seperate DI is the best way to go, it will also more than likely end up being cheaper than replacing the amp too, unless you go for something mental like a REDDI which i don't expect you will. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'm quite surprised that the built-in DI is post-EQ only. So, yes. If you like the amp, just buy a separate DI, they're not that expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJE Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Cheers guys, just searching on here and getting info about DI boxes, its only been 5 minutes and I am already confused and have a headache....active/passive arguments etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Active will load the bass less; running a passive bass into a passive DI will knacker the tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 [quote name='bremen' timestamp='1321875462' post='1443861'] I'm quite surprised that the built-in DI is post-EQ only. So, yes. If you like the amp, just buy a separate DI, they're not that expensive. [/quote] Me too...this is a basic function, IMO. I have this covered on my amps but also have a ToneHammer as a DI pre, if my amp fails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 [size=4]Markbass must have been looking at the mute switch and the DI when they were cutting/rationalising the costs of the LM2. Certainly in the early days the LM2 DI was a known problem area. [/size] [size=4]If you want to keep the LM2 you'll have to carry your own DI box. [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJE Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 It's a real shame MarkBass didnt include a pre/post DI, monumental fail as far as I am concerned but it's my fault I should have checked rather than presumed it would have it. They have, of course, solved this problem with the LM3 from what I have read. Looked at a few good DI's and they seem to be around the ballpark figure of £100 (except for top stuff like the Avalon and RedDI) so just toying up whether to shift the head and change to a head with pre/post EQ. Just wondering if an external will give me a better signal to front of house though? I guess that unless you pay a fortune for a head the DI will just be basic and cheap to keep costs low. Im not pro (yet lol) so dont need a super duper DI but would like to get the best I can, especially as I am running active and passive basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Whose P.A was it...? why do they not have any DI boxes supplied..? And if they don't, why are you using them? This stuff is normally covered by the tech rider, IMO.. All the gigs I have done recently, the Bass was externally DI'd so this is obviously an area that the engr wants control off. My DI's on the amp are post and pre...with output levels on both...but even that might not satisfy the engr who will use his own..in 90% of cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk8 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 you can switch the internal jumper to pre for the di. Its still switched, just not externally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1321879828' post='1443936'] Whose P.A was it...? why do they not have any DI boxes supplied..? And if they don't, why are you using them? This stuff is normally covered by the tech rider, IMO.. All the gigs I have done recently, the Bass was externally DI'd so this is obviously an area that the engr wants control off. My DI's on the amp are post and pre...with output levels on both...but even that might not satisfy the engr who will use his own..in 90% of cases. [/quote] Yes, I've always considered it the PA's job to provide a box. Though there was a thread here not long ago about a studio who didn't have any and considered it the producer's responsibility. Consensus was 'wtf? definitely the studio's job'. Smaller PAs might only have a passive though. I'd suggest getting an 'affordable' active box http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=fddf825b84b3d2d34b7a39c05bf71c89&sw=active+di+box&x=0&y=0 and keeping it for the odd occasion when FOH can't come up with anything decent. You shouldn't have to change the amp if you like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Its worth trying to decide what the issue was on that gig - I always favour a "post eq" send for DI, and its never really caused a problem (just a few grumpy engineers, but they've usually been fine once they see a "known" DI box). I don't use any extreme eq settings...I'm sure that helps a lot. The usual issue with built in DI outputs on amps is background noise (hisses and/or hums) that can't be removed, or very high or low output - not really crap sound. I wouldn't be assuming there is anything wrong at this stage. If you want a plan B, then get a simple good quality passive DI box (Radial Pro?) and run it from a jack output from the amp, effects send or preamp out..or between your bass and amp..if your bass is active and you like the sound without any amp eq added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJE Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Just to clarify the rig we are using is ours (well the drummers). It's a big rig, very powerful and he has spent a lot of money on it, but I dont think he has ever really thought about needing or buying DI boxes. He always used the DI out on his last bass players amp and the keys player always used his own crazy complex mini rig/desk system. We will always use this rig as we do weddings etc and I cant really ask him to fork out for a DI so I am going to sort it myself and it will be used at every gig so I think I should get something reasonable if I am spending money. If only I had not got so excited by a new shiny amp and thought about the features, oh well.... Interested in switching the 'jumper' though, currently googling that so thanks sk8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_S Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Personally I'd always use a dedicated DI box rather than anything built-in, no matter how good it is. That way, if your amp develops a problem / gets its plug pulled etc. you don't lose the DI signal to FoH, just your rig on stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I was considering selling my MXR M80 box recently but didn't because it's not worth it for me, they can be had for £50 used. Moral of the story is it might be worth looking at those preamp/pedal/di boxes that you can get these days. Most places hand me a Samson DI that's pale blue (circuit diagram on the top) and I know for a fact they're pretty cheap. I've never had any problems with them but then again we don't really hear our own FOH sound so I'm finding it hard to properly recommend them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opticaleye Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 It may not be the pre/post switch. Certain desks don't like the Markbass LM11 DI due to impedance mismatch or the like. I (and others) have had this problem and was also unlucky that my Fishman ProEQ DI did exactly the same thing with my old bands desk. I took the LM11 back to the dealer but it worked perfectly with other desks. As I remember we put an adapter on and went into the desk with a stereo jack as a workaround. I now have a DHA VT1 Bass EQ DI (which I would never be without) into my Markbass amps anyway, so always use that DI instead. Tubey goodness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 [quote name='NJE' timestamp='1321872671' post='1443810'] The issue basically was that the front of house sound from my MarkBass was shocking and I put this down to the fact that the DI is only post EQ and the EQ was set up for me onstage. [/quote]Moot. The sound through the PA will be totally different than that on stage whether the DI is pre or post, because PA speakers are relatively flat in response, while bass speakers are anything but. The soundman should have had no trouble dealing with that, assuming the console had EQ on every channel strip. All he had to do was cut the lows and highs and boost the mids, the same as what your speaker does, to compensate for the EQ added to the signal. If he was sent a non-EQ'd signal he'd still have had to EQ the channel to get the PA feed to sound the same, or at least reasonably close, to the stage sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambo Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 [quote name='sk8' timestamp='1321881344' post='1443964'] you can switch the internal jumper to pre for the di. Its still switched, just not externally [/quote][attachment=93568:EffectlLoop_DiModification.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJE Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Cheers for all of the feedback a lot to think about. I have a practice tonight and we use the full rig set up in our studio so I am going to spend some time with it and see where the problem lies and what our drummer/engineer is having issues with. As some have mentioned, I dont want to go spending money or changing my amp if it is something that could be sorted all along by just properly EQ-ing on the desk. If it doesnt work tonight I will think about a solution like a DI box or switching the head (thanks shambo) but I need to properly see what the issue is tonight. I will let you know how we get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) The D.I out on the MBII is OK, they really wouldn`t let down a fine and fairly expensive amp with a crap D.I but it not being switchable is a PITA as it`s nice to use for recording post eq and live pre eq. But, I`m a belt and braces man along with some others so I use a D.I box when needed. I have an ART X Direct that sounds fine and gives a few different options like phase reverse,input pad,earth lift,battery or phantom powered.it also has a Low pass filter. These are £29 on ebay. And I think that`s a bargain. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ART-X-Direct-professional-active-DI-box-NEW-/270844707637?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f0f9a4335#ht_3682wt_932"]http://www.ebay.co.u...5#ht_3682wt_932[/url] As an alternative to that,you might want to try the Behringer BDDI,which makes a decent D.I and can add a nice SVT warmth to your LM II. Or you can switch the EQ section off and just use the D.I output. I used mine a lot up until recently and it sounded great. You can fetch these for about £20.00 [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BEHRINGER-BDI21-Bass-Amp-Modeler-Preamp-DI-Box-/180730281821?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2a145d3f5d#ht_2688wt_698"]http://www.ebay.co.u...d#ht_2688wt_698[/url] Edited November 22, 2011 by Monckyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamPodmore Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 [quote name='Jack' timestamp='1321902869' post='1444296'] Most places hand me a Samson DI that's pale blue (circuit diagram on the top) and I know for a fact they're pretty cheap. I've never had any problems with them but then again we don't really hear our own FOH sound so I'm finding it hard to properly recommend them! [/quote] Same around here, but if Samson mics are anything to go off in terms of sound quality, they can't be too bad. I got lumped with a crap behringer DI a few weeks ago, it did the job, but there was no onstage amp either so i was all monitors and could hear the DI a little more than i normally would. Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 [quote name='NJE' timestamp='1321951334' post='1444642'] drummer/engineer [/quote]Oh, now I see where the problem lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opticaleye Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/noisy-thin-sound-di-amp-mark-bass-content-367337/ Start reading at post #15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Interesting thread, but it seems to me there are as many happy LM II d.i users as there are problematic ones. I used mine on 4 desks so far, a PV,Spirit,Mackie and behringer, all sounded good to me, and I like to think I`m quite critical. There does seem to be some kind of impedance problem with some desks though if half those posts are correct. For live work, you can`t beat having your own separate box, then you are covered for all eventualities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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