How do you measure string height ?

[essexbasscat]

Been looking into the Luthier's side of things lately. I came across a someone offering a small wedge (like a wedge of cheese, not your wages John) as a means of checking string height.

The method is, you slide the wedge between the fret and the lower edge of your desired string and make a small mark i.e. pencil at the point the string contacts the surface of the wedge. Seems an OK idea at first glance, but having tried a similar thing over the weekend I discovered;

- The wedge tips from side to side from pivoting on the fret unless a really steady hand is used. This is done while the other hand is marking the wedge. This means you are craned over the instrument trying to hold one hand steady to a thousanths of an inch while marking precisely with the other hand.

- The wedge also tips from end to end, which can also alter the point of marking, which will in turn influence the final measurement. A combination of rolling the flat base of the wedge of the curvature of the fret as it crosses the fretboard (unless you have a flat fretboard).

- Lastly, the geometry problem. A wedge must surely contact the string slightly to the side of the string, which is higher above the fretboard compared to the lower edge of the string.
This problem is avoided using feeler gauges, but you have to pile a few together to get to some string levels, which again provides an open door for less than accurate readings.

Does anyone have any views / insights / experience and knowledge of this issue ?

Thanks in advance for all contributions all

Edited November 14, 2011 by essexbasscat

[essexbasscat]

Drill bit ? that's an interesting idea. Should give some good starting points for sure. I'm going to look more into that one.

Thanks for that idea Johnston

[gary mac]

I quite often use a drill bit as well

[FlatEric]

This is from a post I put up in T-40.

I have used drill bits for years.

In my opinion, it is the only way to really determine the height.
Roll it over the fret - if the string moves, it is lower than the measurement on the bit.
If it doesn't, then it is higher.
The smallest one I have is 1mm.

[quote name='FlatEric' timestamp='1274819722' post='847956']
Hi.

The measurement is with the bass lying on it's back, as when you put it in the playing position,
it raises by about 0.25mm. Gravity!!

Many years ago, I saw somone using wire to measure action. Wire is made in Standard Wire Gauge, SWG
and is a uniform standard size.
Sliding something round between the fret and the string, is the most accurate way of measuring the distance.
I never did quite get the steel rule thing.

This is my '79, which is the one I am playing at the moment - the vernier shows the size of a drill bit and this
is slid between the fret and the string.
If the gap was greater than the 2.2mm, it would roll off the fret. As the drill is secure, the gap must be less than 2.19mm.

So, the action on this one is 2.2mm, when laid on it's back - it was measured as 2.4mm in the playing position.

[attachment=50547:Action.jpg]
[attachment=50548:Action1.jpg]

On average, in the playing position, mine average around 2.5mm, which is very comfortable to play.
Not sure how old your strings are but if they need changing, try Picato 735 LHY.

Please bear in mind that I play off the front corner of the back pup - if you play nearer the neck,
this would have to be lifted to suit.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
[/quote]

[essexbasscat]

Just come across and explaination on e-bay. Apparently, you place the wedge on the fretboard rather than the fret. If the wedge is wide enough, it sits flat on the fretboard. You offer it up and twang the string until the string sound changes = height acheived. Let it sit there while you mark the wedge, then measure with vernier gauge. Then deduct height of fret.

As for measuring the fret height, I've been using the extending shaft of a vernier gauge as a depth gauge for one or two goes. I don't want to continue with this however, as I suspect this may damage the tool in the long run ? Any ideas here ?

Still like the drill bit idea


Thanks folks.

Edited November 14, 2011 by essexbasscat

[franzbassist]

Get one of these string action gauges from Stewart Macdonald and you'll never look back!

[essexbasscat]

That looks like a really neat tool to have it in your toolbox !

Should have got something like it ages ago.

Edit;

This tool would still be a two hand job, as the other hand will be holding the Sherlock Holmes spyglass to help me see the marks

Edited November 15, 2011 by essexbasscat

[RhysP]

Why not just buy a decent steel rule & measure from the fret to the string?
Piece of piss & that's how most luthiers would do it.

[essexbasscat]

Sense a popcorn moment coming on...

[pete.young]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1321309971' post='1437757']

As for measuring the fret height, I've been using the extending shaft of a vernier gauge as a depth gauge for one or two goes. I don't want to continue with this however, as I suspect this may damage the tool in the long run ? Any ideas here ?

[/quote]

I think it's unlikely you'll damage the tool, although you might mark the fretboard if you're unlucky.

One way: capo on fret x, capo on fret x+2, measure the distance between the fretboard and the bottom of the string in between frets x and x=1 with feeler gauges. Or drill bits. There shouldn't be that much variation if the frets are in good condition.

[TRBboy]

I've never quite understood why people feel the need to measure the string height. The fact is, you can set a bass up using measurements, and it'll still play like a bag of crap. There are far too many variables in a bass neck to be able to successfully measure it that accurately; the fact it's made from wood and despite being quality, well seasoned wood, and being reinforced by a truss rod, it is still susceptible to climate change and will move and twist ever so slightly. Factor in the frets too; fret wear, some of them may lift ever so slightly over time, etc, etc, and you get the picture.

When I worked in one guitar shop, we had a top of the range, Prestige Ibanez RG which was ordered in for a customer and had to be sent back twice because it buzzed so badly and even choked some of the notes higher up the fretboard. I spoke to the technician on the phone who said; "I don't understand it, I've set it up twice and the measurements are spot on!"

IMHO, the only way to get the best out of a bass is to set it up intuitively. Play it, see how it feels, and keep taking the string height down until you get a bit of buzz and then tweak it back up a little. Some seem to set up better with a slight relief in the neck, others seem to take a better set up with the neck almost dead straight.

This is all just IME and IMO of course.

Edited November 17, 2011 by TRBboy

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1321565049' post='1440831']
I've never quite understood why people feel the need to measure the string height. The fact is, you can set a bass up using measurements, and it'll still play like a bag of crap. There are far too many variables in a bass neck to be able to successfully measure it that accurately; the fact it's made from wood and despite being quality, well seasoned wood, and being reinforced by a truss rod, it is still susceptible to climate change and will move and twist ever so slightly. Factor in the frets too; fret wear, some of them may lift ever so slightly over time, etc, etc, and you get the picture.

When I worked in one guitar shop, we had a top of the range, Prestige Ibanez RG which was ordered in for a customer and had to be sent back twice because it buzzed so badly and even choked some of the notes higher up the fretboard. I spoke to the technician on the phone who said; "I don't understand it, I've set it up twice and the measurements are spot on!"

IMHO, the only way to get the best out of a bass is to set it up intuitively. Play it, see how it feels, and keep taking the string height down until you get a bit of buzz and then tweak it back up a little. Some seem to set up better with a slight relief in the neck, others seem to take a better set up with the neck almost dead straight.

This is all just IME and IMO of course.
[/quote]

I know what you mean, however....
I set up a bass/guitar with the lowest action attainable. I do that because that's how I like it and it also lets me know where the tolerances are on a specific neck. The need to know specific heights comes in when your customer prefers it set in a specific way... which is cool as long as it is over the minimum of what the neck can offer.

[JTUK]

[sup]Sight and feel.... that is it..!![/sup]

[TRBboy]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1321565562' post='1440841']


I know what you mean, however....
I set up a bass/guitar with the lowest action attainable. I do that because that's how I like it and it also lets me know where the tolerances are on a specific neck. The need to know specific heights comes in when your customer prefers it set in a specific way... which is cool as long as it is over the minimum of what the neck can offer.
[/quote]

True, I understand where you're coming from too, but..........
I don't see how you can know exactly what the tolerences are like on any one neck. I suppose it depends on how accurately you're trying to measure it really (until a couple of years ago I was a Quality Engineer measuring things to .001mm every day!), but I think that even if you had 3 seemingly identical necks side by side, there would be differences between them.

I also aim to set up as low as I can without significant fret buzz (clearly this can be slightly subjective anyway), but I guess I just do it by finding out what the neck will actually accept, instead of trying to impose the tolerences I think it should accept.

When I was doing set ups and repairs, no one ever said "I want Xmm action", they would just say "i want it as low as you can get it" or "I play really hard so set it up a little higher". That said, most of the people I did work for didn't know their arse from their elbow when it came to their guitar/bass! (although I guess that's why they were paying for it to be set up!)

Edited November 17, 2011 by TRBboy

[essexbasscat]

Accepting what the neck will allow is fine and is often good enough. However, I've come across a few mass produced fretboards with peaks and troughs here and there.

Some fretboard levelling and a refret can make a real difference. Not everyone wants to go that far however and not every guitar would be worth the effort.

[LITTLEWING]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1321565049' post='1440831']
I've never quite understood why people feel the need to measure the string height. The fact is, you can set a bass up using measurements, and it'll still play like a bag of crap. There are far too many variables in a bass neck to be able to successfully measure it that accurately; the fact it's made from wood and despite being quality, well seasoned wood, and being reinforced by a truss rod, it is still susceptible to climate change and will move and twist ever so slightly. Factor in the frets too; fret wear, some of them may lift ever so slightly over time, etc, etc, and you get the picture.

When I worked in one guitar shop, we had a top of the range, Prestige Ibanez RG which was ordered in for a customer and had to be sent back twice because it buzzed so badly and even choked some of the notes higher up the fretboard. I spoke to the technician on the phone who said; "I don't understand it, I've set it up twice and the measurements are spot on!"

IMHO, the only way to get the best out of a bass is to set it up intuitively. Play it, see how it feels, and keep taking the string height down until you get a bit of buzz and then tweak it back up a little. Some seem to set up better with a slight relief in the neck, others seem to take a better set up with the neck almost dead straight.

This is all just IME and IMO of course.
[/quote] Couldn't agree more. it's totally different for every guitar. Play, feel, adjust, repeat until happy. Simples.

[essexbasscat]

The idea of adjusting your guitar until happy works fine much of the time.

But what if you are setting up a guitar and desire a lower string height than the build quality of the guitar will allow ? or you are setting up an instrument for someone else and they require a lower height than the instrument in it's current state will allow ? or the instrument's owner requires a certain spec ?
This is the kind of situation that may be presented to the luthier.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1321802109' post='1443157']
The idea of adjusting your guitar until happy works fine much of the time.

But what if you are setting up a guitar and desire [b]a lower string height than the build quality of the guitar will allow [/b]? or you are setting up an instrument for someone else and they require a lower height than the instrument in it's current state will allow ? or the instrument's owner requires a certain spec ?
This is the kind of situation that may be presented to the luthier.
[/quote]

Then it will not work or sound good. You would, by it's very nature, have to do more work to attain the string height.

Feel is better than measuremnt on an organic device like a wooden neck.

I understand what you are trying to say and achieve, but I really don't think it works in reality

Edited November 20, 2011 by Blademan_98

[essexbasscat]

Yes, I agree, in some circumstances, you would have to do more work i.e. level off the fretboard and re-fret, if that's what the customer wants in order to acheive their aims.
It's really just an example of a situation where measurements may be required in order to achieve a desired a set up. But as other have said here earlier, much of the time it's good enough to set up as best as possible.

[lonestar]

Hi Essex Basscat,
I just use a 6" steel rule from the top of the fret to the underside of the string using Fender factory specs; works for me.

[essexbasscat]

Hi Lonestar, thanks for your post -also thanks to everyone else that's contributed

Some good ideas here, I'll definately remember the drill bit trick. It's also interesting to see a topic discussed

Having re-read the thread, I seem to have ended up echoing much of what Ou7shined said

The AFL system thread is entertaining too

[TRBboy]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1321802109' post='1443157']
The idea of adjusting your guitar until happy works fine much of the time.

But what if you are setting up a guitar and desire [b]a lower string height than the build quality of the guitar will allow[/b] ? or you are setting up an instrument for someone else and they require a lower height than the instrument in it's current state will allow ? or the instrument's owner requires a certain spec ?
This is the kind of situation that may be presented to the luthier.
[/quote]

That's exactly the problem - you're fighting a losing battle from the start!

EDIT: Apologies, jumped in before I'd read all the posts!

Edited November 21, 2011 by TRBboy

[xilddx]

A tiny amount of neck shift can change your carefully set up action a mm either way at the 12th fret.

I set up my Streamer yesterday and it's about 2mm at the 24th with very little buzz. I don't expect this to last long before I need to make more adjustments to keep it that way though.

I have no idea why I would need precise measurements. All necks are different and behave differently, especially fretted, especially fretted bolt-ons.