chris_b Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [[quote name='mercuryl' timestamp='1320327979' post='1425348'] ....There is no excuse, for example, for using an identical scratchplate to the fender brand, with pickups that are identical looking.... [/quote] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Yes there is. It's called giving the public what they want. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]The guys making Lace, Barker and Gus probably all have day jobs and I bet you've never heard of them. The people you are slagging off are top craftsmen and very successful businessmen for a reason. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1320330263' post='1425392'] [ [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Yes there is. It's called giving the public what they want. [/font][/color][/size] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]The guys making Lace, Barker and Gus probably all have day jobs and I bet you've never heard of them. The people you are slagging off are top craftsmen and very successful businessmen for a reason. [/font][/color][/size] [/quote] Someone is getting all hot and bothered? "Slagging off" ? I am just pointing out that they are showing a lack of imagination - whether they are top craftsmen or not. There is absolutely no excuse for copying a scratchplate exactly - let alone all of the other bits. Make your own fresh design ...... or if you can't, and you're skills are in woodcraft, then team up with proper designer who can do that with you. I just wouldn't feel comfortable standing there playing a copied design. However much "better" it is than the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The point that's missing here is that people are generally very conservative in their outlook when it comes to stuff like this. Most players don't like basses that look too radical or stray from the formula, hence why (to the untrained eye), even more modern basses like most multi laminate, thru necked double soapbar 'superbasses' look essentially the same too. The same theory can be applied to anyone wanting a Fender - they do the job and look normal enough for the player to be comfortable. Anything that isn't moves the player outside of the comfort zone. It's the same reason why nobody mass produced a motorcycle with a fairing 'til the very late seventies. Riders before that simply wouldn't buy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mercuryl' timestamp='1320327979' post='1425348']Yeah. You more like.[/quote] Yeah, you're right. Roger Sadowsky, Sheldon Dingwall, Dan Lakin all clearly have no pride in the instruments they produce. Thank you for showing me the light, mercuryl, thank you for removing the covers from over my eyes. You truly have changed my life. I am so stunned I need to go for a lie down. Edited November 3, 2011 by Toasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='mercuryl' timestamp='1320331167' post='1425411'] I just wouldn't feel comfortable standing there playing a copied design. However much "better" it is than the original. [/quote] I personally don't give a damn what I'm playing, as long as it plays well. Fenderish designs seem to work for me. My main bass at the moment is a Japanese Fender Jazz. It's a nice instrument, very well built, nice weight, sounds good, better than most American Jazzes I've owned or played. It honestly wouldn't bother me if it said Tokai on the headstock, which is essentially what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1320331481' post='1425418'] Yeah, you're right. Roger Sadowsky, Sheldon Dingwall, Dan Lakin all clearly have no pride in the instruments they produce. Thank you for showing me the light, mercuryl, thank you for removing the covers from over my eyes. You truly have changed my life. I am so stunned I need to go for a lie down. [/quote] I was referring, "Mr Hot under the Collar", to the fact that I can't be missing the point of my own post. Which you seemed to miss. - That I feel that it shows a lack of imagination to copy other people's designs. Am I right in saying that your profile pic/words suggest that you are a moderator? If that's the case then I'm surprised you're getting so emotional (amd a bit rude) over a post discussion. Some people ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mercuryl' timestamp='1320331167' post='1425411'] ...I am just pointing out that they are showing a lack of imagination - whether they are top craftsmen or not. There is absolutely no excuse for copying a scratchplate exactly - let alone all of the other bits. Make your own fresh design ...... or if you can't, and you're skills are in woodcraft, then team up with proper designer who can do that with you. I just wouldn't feel comfortable standing there playing a copied design. However much "better" it is than the original. [/quote] The thing is most of these guys will have designs of their own, you just don't get to see them as they are deemed risky (because of what needs to be changed in the production line) or unmarketable because of the fact that the buyers and the retailers only want popular designs. If you want something unique go to a luthier and work out something together and get him to build it for you. Edited November 3, 2011 by Ou7shined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1320331348' post='1425414'] The point that's missing here is that people are generally very conservative in their outlook when it comes to stuff like this. Most players don't like basses that look too radical or stray from the formula, hence why (to the untrained eye), even more modern basses like most multi laminate, thru necked double soapbar 'superbasses' look essentially the same too. The same theory can be applied to anyone wanting a Fender - they do the job and look normal enough for the player to be comfortable. Anything that isn't moves the player outside of the comfort zone. It's the same reason why nobody mass produced a motorcycle with a fairing 'til the very late seventies. Riders before that simply wouldn't buy them. [/quote] This. People are very conservative about design. They like what looks 'normal'. I used to have a Hohner B2A. It was a cracking bass and very comfortable to play. Because essentially there was very little body to it it sat quite neatly. I haven't got it anymore because I gave up playing for several years and bought a fishing rod and other stuff with the proceeds . I'd have another though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelf Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) Selling original designs is hard work. I have tried to design things that are of the beaten track. I have seen numerous posts on various forums say how ugly,stupid, don't see the point, any number of other disparaging remarks about my designs. Fortunately I have found enough people or they have found me to make a business out of this. But if I wanted to sell a lot of basses I would build copies because that is what the majority want to buy. I am working on a production Jazz type bass for that very reason. I tried producing an entry level hand made bass with better hardware pre-amp etc than a Fender for a lot less than an American Fender but not Fender shaped. I have given up because I can't sell them. Edited November 3, 2011 by skelf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1320332553' post='1425437'] ....Has anyone said yet. Because people buy them.... [/quote] I did, but apparently I'm missing the point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='skelf' timestamp='1320332904' post='1425444']Selling original designs is hard work. I have tried to design things that are of the beaten track. I have seen numerous posts on various forums say how ugly,stupid, don't see the point, any number of other disparaging remarks about my designs. Fortunately I have found enough people or they have found me to make a business out of this. But if I wanted to sell a lot of basses I would build copies because that is what the majority want to buy. I am working on a production Jazz type bass for that very reason. I tried producing an entry level hand made bass with better hardware pre-amp etc for less than a Fender but not Fender shaped. I have given up because I can't sell them.[/quote] Alan , FWIW, if the time comes (given my current financial state I can't help wondering if it ever will) it'll definitely be one of your designs I'll be buying, not your take on a Fender! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelf Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Cheers Mr 4000. You going to make Bassday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The worst culprits are FMIC! They even have the nerve to put the Fender logo on their copies! All they really did was buy the rights to the instruments from CBS who bought them from the real Fender. What have they got to do with the originals? Nought! They didn't even make Fenders in the goddamn US of A for a few years but they called these guitars made in Japan Fenders! How does that work? The original Fenders stopped being made once Leo and George buggered off, everything else is a copy. And another thing, Team Lotus my hole! I thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1320334424' post='1425476'] The worst culprits are FMIC! They even have the nerve to put the Fender logo on their copies! All they really did was buy the rights to the instruments from CBS who bought them from the real Fender. What have they got to do with the originals? Nought! They didn't even make Fenders in the goddamn US of A for a few years but they called these guitars made in Japan Fenders! How does that work? The original Fenders stopped being made once Leo and George buggered off, everything else is a copy. And another thing, Team Lotus my hole! I thank you [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='skelf' timestamp='1320332904' post='1425444'] Selling original designs is hard work. I have tried to design things that are of the beaten track. I have seen numerous posts on various forums say how ugly,stupid, don't see the point, any number of other disparaging remarks about my designs. Fortunately I have found enough people or they have found me to make a business out of this. But if I wanted to sell a lot of basses I would build copies because that is what the majority want to buy. I am working on a production Jazz type bass for that very reason. I tried producing an entry level hand made bass with better hardware pre-amp etc than a Fender for a lot less than an American Fender but not Fender shaped. I have given up because I can't sell them. [/quote] Yeah I'm working on some Fender-esque ideas. There's a huge chunk of the market that simply won't consider anything else, but I think Fenders foray into outsourcing has kind of made buying basses like Laklands and Sadowskys ok. You're buying a stock, standard design which has a guaranteed quality and maybe some features that are better thought out than Fender themselves, often made in the US when Fenders often aren't and often top shelf pickups and hardware when Fenders are usually built down to a price. Most successful Fender cloners offered a bit more equipment and better quality compared to the bog standard Fenders. The skill (or luck) is knowing what features to keep and what to improve. Edited November 3, 2011 by henry norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matski Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1320313914' post='1425086'] Lakland’s most successful designs are their own, the **-94, **-01 and **-02 basses are not Fender copies. [/quote] True, but they are VERY similar to the MusicMan StingRay (body shape, pickup choice, headstock...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1320330263' post='1425392'] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]The people you are slagging off are quite good with a screwdriver and very successful businessmen for a reason. [/font][/color][/size] [/quote] Fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I own what was once called a "super-jazz". Its a bass that was made by Hamer in the early nineties called a Cruise bass. Why did i buy it? I got fed up buying shoddy Fenders. Don't get me wrong i still own Fenders but i wanted something with a boutique feel and also to be a little different. The build quality is way above anything i have seen from Fender. So to answer the OP i think that the Jazz bass is a fantastic design but the build quality is often suspect. This is why other manufacturers have been able to plug a gap in the Fender market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I think that trend is slowly changing. Its starting with the budget clones like Vintage, Harley Benton etc. It could be said that Ibby took a fair bit of inspiration for the SR line from NS. The Yamaha RBX? Seems a bit Warwick like to me......... Its like cars, the basic shape will always be there, the classics will always resurface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machines Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yamaha RBX looks like which Warwick exactly ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Fortress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='skelf' timestamp='1320333468' post='1425457'] Cheers Mr 4000. You going to make Bassday. [/quote] Looking unlikely due to other commitments, sadly. Even sadder is that said commitments aren't the KT Tunstall gig I was supposed to be at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='matski' timestamp='1320337603' post='1425530'] ....True, but they are VERY similar to the MusicMan StingRay (body shape, pickup choice, headstock...).... [/quote] [size=4]To an extent all guitars have similarities, but we were talking about Fender instruments, which aren't that original either. [/size] [size=4]The Fender headstock is a direct copy of the one designed by Paul Bigsby for Merle Travis. And it's strange how Bigsby's solid body guitar predates the Fender Telecaster and is so similar to the later Gibson Les Paul! [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1320340417' post='1425619'] To an extent all guitars have similarities, [/quote] Bit like bikes I suppose, there's not a lot you can do to the 'basics' of the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckendrick Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1320334424' post='1425476'] Team Lotus my hole![/quote] Is that an order...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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