Are Bb Players Lazy?

[Thurbs]

It is my first time playing in a band outside the usual rock and pop thing so I have joined a 8 piece classical/ easy listening/jazz band. We have some clarinet and sax players and I understand their instruments are tuned to Bb. So when they play a C, it is Bb instead.

Putting aside the stupidity of such a instrument, why cant they play up two semi tones? Why do all the C players have to go down two semi-tones (sometimes on the fly!!)? Forgive my ignorance but is there a good reason for this other than them being lazy?!?!

I don't mind and this isn't a winge, more a question really.

[gilmour]

It's much easier to transpose on bass or guitar than it is on horns. On bass it's just a case of shifting the same shape a couple of frets whilst on horns it's going to mean a whole new fingering. I get why they want to do it as it does make life easier

Of course that said when I used to be in a jam band we used to pick keys just to annoy the horns

[dlloyd]

I've had clarinets and saxes that were tuned to Bb, A and Eb.

One of the reasons is timbre. There's a heck of a difference between matched clarinets tuned to Bb and A, with the A sounding darker. C clarinets and saxes do exist but they sound like crap.

The main reason for having transposing instruments is historical. There's a fair bit of engineering that goes into producing a clarinet that can hit all the chromatic notes and early instruments had only a couple of accidental keys at best. For pieces that deviated from the home key by more than a couple of sharps or flats, you'd swap to an instrument that could handle it. Even today, the accidentals are a bit of a compromise, and the best tone is achieved by playing on an instrument that is close to the written key.

Same goes for all other wind instruments. Some, like the flute and oboe have standardised at C because they sound pretty good at that tuning, but they also have transposing counterparts like the alto flute and the cor anglais.

Brass instruments... similar story.

It's a hell of a lot easier for a stringed instrument player to transpose on the fly than it is for a wind player, but a decent wind player should be able to do it.

[dlloyd]

Here's an early clarinet for example... it just wouldn't be possible to play in all keys on one of these, and composers would tend to gravitate towards a few that sounded half decent tonally. This one is about the same period that Mozart was active.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='gilmour' timestamp='1316851522' post='1383588']
Of course that said when I used to be in a jam band we used to pick keys just to annoy the horns
[/quote]

Listen to the horn players complaining around 20 - 30 seconds in...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtC2XDbE8Zo[/media]

[geoffbyrne]

The sax player in my blues band conforms to the guitar keys, although he prefers it when we stick to (our) EADG & C. The sax player in my middle-of-the-road band also conforms to the guitar keys and we have a much wider range of keys in that band. makes for quite a lot of work for him. In fact, so far, I haven't worked with a sax player where the reverse was the case.

G.

[lowdown]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If the [Bb] blowers are playing the tunes, they are going to pick the keys that sound nicer and within range.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Quite often they will use fake book keys, and everyone knows where they stand [well on a busking gig][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If they are just playing backing phrases, it should not make a difference [If they are experienced][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Classical pieces are a different matter and are usually written out and arranged with sound/range/timbre/harmony colour in mind.[/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]There is more to it than just being lazy i think - A lot of wind players double and treble with[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Concert, Bb and Eb instruments. Meaning they have put a lot of work into learning their Instrument[s][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Garry[/font]

Edited September 24, 2011 by lowdown

[Len_derby]

A interesting counter-argument I've had from a trumpet player is that if we play a stringed instrument with frets on the neck we're lazy too!

[LukeFRC]

I play bass. I taught myself.
I don't think I'm going to tell anyone else they are lazy.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1316853332' post='1383623']
...
[/quote]

Interesting stuff. Cheers.

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1316853332' post='1383623']

Listen to the horn players complaining around 20 - 30 seconds in...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtC2XDbE8Zo[/media]
[/quote]


We do several blues numbers in B maj. - I used to move them to Bb or A, but now sax player says it's not a great problem.

G.

[Doddy]

Are Bb players lazy?
Are many guitar and bass players lazy for often playing in E and A(usually minor),or whatever they tune their
open strings too?
It's no big deal to play in different keys-especially as a bass/guitar player.Sometimes the horns have to play in uncomfortable keys and sometime the guys in concert have to,it's just the way it is. If it is a big deal,it means you need to spend some time
learning new keys.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1316864138' post='1383779']
Are Bb players lazy?
Are many guitar and bass players lazy for often playing in E and A(usually minor),or whatever they tune their
open strings too?
It's no big deal to play in different keys-especially as a bass/guitar player.Sometimes the horns have to play in uncomfortable keys and sometime the guys in concert have to,it's just the way it is. If it is a big deal,it means you need to spend some time
learning new keys.
[/quote]


Yep..it is not like a gtr to want to change into horn keys....

[Bilbo]

Its not all about us, guys!

For the record, the fact that an alto and tenor are different (Eb and Bb respectively) is so that, when you are reading a chart, the notes before you correspond with the keys on the horn. When a sax player sees a C on the chart hhis fingers go to the same place, its just the notes that you hear that are different. For years, I thought that reading Bb and Eb meant that sax players had to learn two different clefs. The don't. SO reading a bass chart that goes up to alto or treble clef is harder.

But, as has been said, there are many different instruments that are tuned to different clefs and a legitimate orcestrator has to know whether the line needs on of a number of different clarinets, horns etc in order to meet the composers intentions.

Now, as for using a capo.....

Or the transpose key on a keyboard

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1316868416' post='1383842']


Yep..it is not like a gtr to want to change into horn keys....
[/quote]
I love playing with guitarists who don't flinch at the mention of Eb.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1316864138' post='1383779']
Are Bb players lazy?
Are many guitar and bass players lazy for often playing in E and A(usually minor),or whatever they tune their
open strings too?
It's no big deal to play in different keys-especially as a bass/guitar player.Sometimes the horns have to play in uncomfortable keys and sometime the guys in concert have to,it's just the way it is. If it is a big deal,it means you need to spend some time
learning new keys.
[/quote]

That's true, of course, but even if they can play with some degree of comfort in any key, they're always going to prefer to play closer to their C major.

If you ask me to play in concert E major on a Bb clarinet, I'm playing in F# major or Gb major. 6 sharps or 6 flats. Assuming I'm okay with that, it's never going to sound as good as it would do if I was playing in C due to the physical limitations of the instrument and the way the tuning is optimised to the home keys (it's not tuned to equal temperament.

If I had an A clarinet, there would be less of a problem, because concert E major is G major on an A clarinet. Easy peasy.

[Len_derby]

A lot of Chuck Berry's songs were originally recorded in 'horn' keys.
And there's a man who, by all accounts, doesn't put himself much out for other people.

My guitarist is quite happy to play in Eb. He just downtunes a semi...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Len_derby' timestamp='1316869663' post='1383863']
... My guitarist is quite happy to play in Eb. He just downtunes a semi...
[/quote]
That's not quite what I meant.

[Doddy]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1316869371' post='1383856']
If you ask me to play in concert E major on a Bb clarinet, I'm playing in F# major or Gb major. 6 sharps or 6 flats. Assuming I'm okay with that, it's never going to sound as good as it would do if I was playing in C due to the physical limitations of the instrument and the way the tuning is optimised to the home keys (it's not tuned to equal temperament.
[/quote]
I understand that..I'm talking more about being comfortable playing in other keys on the bass or guitar-without retuning or using a capo (or pressing
the transpose button on a keyboard).
It's not hard to play in F or Eb or whatever,but a lot of guitar and bass players will want to transpose these tunes to E. Why? Laziness?

[Len_derby]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1316870041' post='1383870']
That's not quite what I meant.
[/quote]
Yes, I know. Like yourself I like a guitarist who isn't fazed. As a slight aside, I have no prejudice against the use of a capo (I do a bit of guitar myself). I think a capo, especially if it's past the third fret, alters the timbre of the instrument such that it can add a lot of extra interest to a song sonically. Particularly if there's another guitar played open-necked in the same band.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Len_derby' timestamp='1316870614' post='1383887']
Yes, I know. Like yourself I like a guitarist who isn't fazed. As a slight aside, I have no prejudice against the use of a capo (I do a bit of guitar myself). I think a capo, especially if it's past the third fret, alters the timbre of the instrument such that it can add a lot of extra interest to a song sonically. Particularly if there's another guitar played open-necked in the same band.
[/quote]
I don't mind a capo so much if it's used like that.What I don't like is when someone puts a capo on the first fret(for example) because they
can't play (or be bothered to learn?) in F

[Thurbs]

Thanks guys.

I have no problem transposing, I just didn't know why I was being asked. I thought it may be because the band leader was lazy and just getting us 3 C players to transpose instead of her, the single Bb player. We also have a sax player in Eb and he didn't have an issue at all with any song.

I also didn't realise that the key would effect the tonality of the instrument so much and can understand why it is preferable going down 3 semi's all the time. Makes perfect sense.

As an aside, some songs we were going up 5 or 6. I can transpose on the fly when it is a few, but 5 or 6 is a bit different and I couldn't do it in real time on a fast swing number.

As to the comments regarding moving fret positions, I don't learn songs with fret positions and shapes, instead use chords and notes improvising over them. Just shifting up or down the fret board wouldn't work and is even less likely to work on a DB given the much harder intonation the further you get towards 11th position and beyond. I haven't mastered thumb position yet!

The joys of Jazzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[gilmour]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1316853332' post='1383623']

Listen to the horn players complaining around 20 - 30 seconds in...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtC2XDbE8Zo[/media]
[/quote]

Quality - B from now on

[deepbass5]

I think Dlloyd, covered it quite well. Having come from Trombone and played in Brass Bands and Orchestras for the first 10 years of my musical life. I got used to living in a Mono world. Just playing notes and not having to understand why this or that note, I have played for years without any need to understand Chords and where I fitted into the whole picture. When I took up the bass my musical world suddenly became three dimensional, Music changed from Black and white to colour.
There are of course exceptions to this rule, but even now blowers i.e. Trumpet and trombone players are less likely to improvise as Sax players who are naturally drawn to Jazz in the first place.
And yes they are usually lazy in that they turn up just in time for them; helping set up n pack away etc. is not on their radar. They will be first in line for food n drink and seem to have a very narrow view on the subtleties of dealing with the clients.
So I would add selfish in as well as lazy

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1316943473' post='1384511']
I think Dlloyd, covered it quite well. Having come from Trombone and played in Brass Bands and Orchestras for the first 10 years of my musical life. I got used to living in a Mono world. Just playing notes and not having to understand why this or that note, I have played for years without any need to understand Chords and where I fitted into the whole picture. When I took up the bass my musical world suddenly became three dimensional, Music changed from Black and white to colour.
There are of course exceptions to this rule, but even now blowers i.e. Trumpet and trombone players are less likely to improvise as Sax players who are naturally drawn to Jazz in the first place.
And yes they are usually lazy in that they turn up just in time for them; helping set up n pack away etc. is not on their radar. They will be first in line for food n drink and seem to have a very narrow view on the subtleties of dealing with the clients.
So I would add selfish in as well as lazy
[/quote]
Do you think they choose Bb instruments because they are selfish and lazy or is it that playing Bb instruments makes them selfish and lazy?