Who is endorsing who?

[TomKent]

In regards to the Vintage dig, this is coming from the side of their players (though I've only just joined 'em).

Their equipment is considerably better than what it use to be like, I mean honestly, I've got the 5 string active Stingray copy and it's a decent backup. It's not a touch on the Fodera, however for the price of the product it's very good. Electrics are put together well and it's relatively ease free to play. Having set it up, it's my bass, so I can play it very easily.

Plus, when a company gives you equipment, you're not gonna say 'nah this is crap, but I'll play it' as a quote.

Endorsement to me (at the moment) is a company helping you along the road by giving you publicity where they can, accreditation and when possible free gear. That's why my signature on here has 'Developing my musical career with the help of..' - because that's what they're doing in the endorsements.. developing my career.

Edit: found a definition of endorsing.

"To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement; sanction"

Edited July 12, 2011 by TomKent

[skankdelvar]

Bugger all these bass endorsements. Have you guys tried Lea & Perrins' Worcestershire Sauce? God, it's yummy. Particulary with cheese.

And celery, too. Surprising that, eh? Who'd have thought that Lea & Perrins' Worcestershire Sauce could be so versatile?

[Dood]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1301666' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:09 PM']Bugger all these bass endorsements. Have you guys tried Lea & Perrins' Worcestershire Sauce? God, it's yummy. Particulary with cheese.

And celery, too. Surprising that, eh? Who'd have thought that Lea & Perrins' Worcestershire Sauce could be so versatile?[/quote]

I wanna get my mits on some of that HP Guinness sauce!

[pantherairsoft]

I'd endorse Levi Roots Regge Regge sauce...

[TomKent]

Happy to announce..

[dc2009]

[quote name='dood' post='1301672' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:16 PM']I wanna get my mits on some of that HP Guinness sauce![/quote]

You're welcome to mine, Dood, I wasn't a fan!

[ThomBassmonkey]

I'm always in awe of the amount of comments pointing fingers at endorsees and claiming they're mindlessly biased towards the product simple because of the discount.

Put simply, if you're happy to put your name behind a brand that you don't like enough to recommend anyway, then your opinion probably isn't worth listening to in the first place.

I don't think a lot of people understand exactly what an endorsement entails, most people seem to think that there's a clause in the contract that outlines exactly how far up the manufacturer's arse the endorsee's tongue needs to be and that's just not how it works.

If you found your ideal piece of gear and you got offered a discount on it (or even free), you'd be stupid not to take it. It doesn't suddenly make your opinion unreliable or biased. Having said that, it doesn't make much sense to have an endorsee reviewing gear they endorse as obviousy they like it or they wouldn't be an endorsee.

As for the original question of who is endorsing who, IMO it's a mutual endorsement. The manufacturer is endorsing the band by saying "we're proud that this band is using out gear" and the band is endorsing the manufacturer by saying "we're proud to be using this gear".

All IMO, IME, YMMV etc etc, but my band has various endorsements, I know a far bit about GK amps and really do like them so I often suggest them and it winds me up to think that people think I'm biased because of my endorsement. A ) I turned down another endorsement to keep using my paid for GK amp before the endorsement and B ) there's other products I talk about that I'm not endorsed by (Sandberg being the prime example). If I'm biased towards GK gear (which I am) it's a because they're a damned fine product that I would (and did) use regardless of endorsement.

Edited July 12, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1301646' date='Jul 12 2011, 09:55 PM'] because I think many "boutique" basses are overpriced for what they are.[/quote]

Says the man with the custom shop Warwick?

[Steve Lawson]

I wrote a blog post about this, after being asked loads of questions about Endorsements - it's 5 or 6 years old, but pretty much still makes sense...

the question of who's endorsing who is a really good one - ideally it's a two way thing. You play the gear you love, and the company - grateful for the exposure and support - reciprocate with the kind of support they can offer, with cheaper equipment, gear shipped to venues, loaner gear, adverts (which are definitely a bonus for both parties)...

Anyway, here's the post, hope it's of some use:

[url="http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/"]http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/[/url]

Steve

[Dood]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1301696' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:39 PM']You're welcome to mine, Dood, I wasn't a fan![/quote]

Heh! Im guessing its gonna have a similar effect that Marmite does on people!

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1301698' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:40 PM']I'm always in awe of the amount of comments pointing fingers at endorsees and claiming they're mindlessly biased towards the product simple because of the discount.

Put simply, if you're happy to put your name behind a brand that you don't like enough to recommend anyway, then your opinion probably isn't worth listening to in the first place.

I don't think a lot of people understand exactly what an endorsement entails, most people seem to think that there's a clause in the contract that outlines exactly how far up the manufacturer's arse the endorsee's tongue needs to be and that's just not how it works.

If you found your ideal piece of gear and you got offered a discount on it (or even free), you'd be stupid not to take it. It doesn't suddenly make your opinion unreliable or biased. Having said that, it doesn't make much sense to have an endorsee reviewing gear they endorse as obviousy they like it or they wouldn't be an endorsee.

As for the original question of who is endorsing who, IMO it's a mutual endorsement. The manufacturer is endorsing the band by saying "we're proud that this band is using out gear" and the band is endorsing the manufacturer by saying "we're proud to be using this gear".

All IMO, IME, YMMV etc etc, but my band has various endorsements, I know a far bit about GK amps and really do like them so I often suggest them and it winds me up to think that people think I'm biased because of my endorsement. A ) I turned down another endorsement to keep using my paid for GK amp before the endorsement and B ) there's other products I talk about that I'm not endorsed by (Sandberg being the prime example). If I'm biased towards GK gear (which I am) it's a because they're a damned fine product that I would (and did) use regardless of endorsement.[/quote]

Nice post.

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='1301728' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:11 PM']I wrote a blog post about this, after being asked loads of questions about Endorsements - it's 5 or 6 years old, but pretty much still makes sense...

the question of who's endorsing who is a really good one - ideally it's a two way thing. You play the gear you love, and the company - grateful for the exposure and support - reciprocate with the kind of support they can offer, with cheaper equipment, gear shipped to venues, loaner gear, adverts (which are definitely a bonus for both parties)...

Anyway, here's the post, hope it's of some use:

[url="http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/"]http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/[/url]

Steve[/quote]

Hey Steve, hope ya had a safe trip back! Thats a great piece and saved me a bit of typing as you have explained it far better than i would have. I wanted to make a point about the other 'features' of endorsements and touched on company support in my last post. You've added plenty more detail in reference to.

[LLOYDWT]

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='1301728' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:11 PM']I wrote a blog post about this, after being asked loads of questions about Endorsements - it's 5 or 6 years old, but pretty much still makes sense...

the question of who's endorsing who is a really good one - ideally it's a two way thing. You play the gear you love, and the company - grateful for the exposure and support - reciprocate with the kind of support they can offer, with cheaper equipment, gear shipped to venues, loaner gear, adverts (which are definitely a bonus for both parties)...

Anyway, here's the post, hope it's of some use:

[url="http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/"]http://www.stevelawson.net/2006/10/how_music_gear_/[/url]

Steve[/quote]

Really enjoyed this post. Really interesting to get your insight on the subject and I like your perspective on the relationship between artist & company.

[dc2009]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1301715' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:59 PM']Says the man with the custom shop Warwick?[/quote]

It has a custom top, I wanted a standard model but the upgrade in accessories I got (a bulletproof hard case, 2 sets of black label strings etc) with the custom top were worth comfortably over double what I spent extra on the top.

And by boutique I specifically meant basses produced by companies/luthiers that only do made to order, and therefore are boutique, Warwick is by no means a boutique name.

[Jase]

So, for the record would any endorsing artists care to list their companies commitment to them?
What said company does for them, who has tour support, who has ad/mag spreads, etc?

[TomKent]

I'll have a read through the contracts and see.

I do not have tour support by any of them, though. The tours I've done/do the management cover everything anyway.

Edited July 13, 2011 by TomKent

[stingrayPete1977]

I think the people that get upset about this are the ones confusing a sponsorship (David Beckham, Michael Schumacher sort of thing etc) with an endorsement?

In fact you could be sponsored ie paid to use a product and still endorse something else as long as the products were different enough. To me endorsement is just the same as like, You like x brand and they like you. I personally wouldn't approach anyone for an endorsement but using three MM basses would speak volumes to any bass player watching that liked my playing I guess?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='geoffbassist' post='1300949' date='Jul 12 2011, 05:08 AM']Its more often than not an 'artist deal' where the manufacturer is selling direct to the player at about trade price. They still get paid the same for their gear as it's the retailers fee that's left of the price the player pays.[/quote]
I've seen so many endorsement deals that are just discounts still above wholesale that I've formed the opinion that companies know that if you call someone an endorser they are more likely to buy your stuff for the bragging rights. I think if it aint free it's just a sale with a fancy name.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Machines' post='1300966' date='Jul 12 2011, 05:22 AM']Amusing to me was a BGM article where a bass was reviewed by one of the brands endorsing players. Unsurprisingly not a bad word was said against it, nor a declaration of authors links to the brand.[/quote]
With few rare exceptions all reviews are paid advertising. Notice how often the reviewed gear will have an ad in the same issue. If you don't buy the advertising you don't get a review printed. Many reviews are simple rewrites of press releases.

[dc2009]

Thing is BGM strikes me as Top Gear for bass players. It can be entertaining/interesting yes, but can I afford to go and buy that new stack/bass/pedal every month? Of course not. It's usefulness ends there, it is good for entertainment and interest reading, nothing more IMO. If I'm googling a product I'm interested in buying, I won't even bother with an official review. This is where sites like harmony-central (and our very own BC though the reviews section could do with being more active) come into their own.

[Steve Lawson]

[quote name='LLOYDWT' post='1301802' date='Jul 13 2011, 12:58 AM']Really enjoyed this post. Really interesting to get your insight on the subject and I like your perspective on the relationship between artist & company.[/quote]

Thanks! Very glad it was useful... The lust for 'free gear' never made sense to me, given how damaging the 'wrong' gear was to the way I was trying to make music! There have been a few companies who aggressively pursued pretty much any player who appeared in magazines to use their stuff. I lost a fair amount of respect for any player who jumped ship just for the free gear. I understand it a little more at the 'paid to play level' (those 5-10 players who are in the situation) given that part of their livelihood depends on it, and they can for the most part quite easily afford to have other gear for recording (I know of at least one fairly well known player with a signature bass from a mass-production company who apparently never uses it in the studio...)

Likewise, I understood Flea moving from Modulus to making his own bass so that the kids who want a Fleabass just cos Flea plays it can afford to get it... I just wish he'd made a better bass

Steve

[Sonic_Groove]

[quote name='dood' post='1301672' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:16 PM']I wanna get my mits on some of that HP Guinness sauce![/quote]

It's absolutely gorgeous & great to add to cooking (chilli, stews, etc.)

Bren

[Lfalex v1.1]

I'd endorse this;



And immediately repel at least half the population.

[Jase]

[i]You promote their gear; they promote your music.[/i]
No they don't, maybe if you're a player with high public exposure?

Here's one....Warwick offer endorsements, I was told that TV exposure secures instrument deals???

Who endorses Warwick here? Just wondering if we're in the company of TV bass players?

[i]Sometimes there is money involved in the form of discounts [/i]
Discounts are basically what I would call a trade account or at a stretch, an artist deal. Everybody pays.....don't they?


[i]Perhaps some signatures need changing [/i]
Just stop bullshitting.

Thing is, these days just about anybody can get an artist account, best price, what ever you want to call it, you don't even have to leave the house and why not?
It's just like selling a product to a shop.

For the low profile, unknown guy that's as far as it goes, no support, no tour loans, no mag spreads, no name on the artist list,
no matter what sort of reputation you've built for yourself, which makes sense to me.
So please ffs stop with the I'm endorsed by, I endorse bollocks!

Or...somebody please list the support they get from an artist deal or trade account outside best prices.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Jase, that's total rubbish.

Speaking for myself, I can't give examples because there's a confidentiality agreement in my endorsement contract, I will say though that I DO get more support from Polar (not just GK, though I am on a GK endorsement) than just cheap GK gear.

Disregarding discount, support and promotional stuff, the experience if you work with them is good. I recently worked on the GK stand at the LBGS as a demonstrater, that's something I never could have done without the endorsement.

Apart from anything else else, if distributors wanted to shift gear for a cheaper price, they'd save themselves the hassle and buy direct.

For the record, I got offered a Warwick amp endorsement and know several people who've had bass endorsements, it's got nothing to do with tv appearances. Clearly what you've been told isn't very accurate, but then the rest of your post makes that pretty clear anyway.

[Jase]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1303013' date='Jul 13 2011, 11:22 PM']Jase, that's total rubbish.

Speaking for myself, I can't give examples because there's a confidentiality agreement in my endorsement contract, I will say though that I DO get more support from Polar (not just GK, though I am on a GK endorsement) than just cheap GK gear.

Disregarding discount, support and promotional stuff, the experience if you work with them is good. I recently worked on the GK stand at the LBGS as a demonstrater, that's something I never could have done without the endorsement.

Apart from anything else else, if distributors wanted to shift gear for a cheaper price, they'd save themselves the hassle and buy direct.

For the record, I got offered a Warwick amp endorsement and know several people who've had bass endorsements, it's got nothing to do with tv appearances. Clearly what you've been told isn't very accurate, but then the rest of your post makes that pretty clear anyway.[/quote]

How is my post rubbish?

[ThomBassmonkey]

Because you're saying that endorsements are a way for distributors to cut out the middle man and flog their gear without making a loss, rather than for the benefit of the artist.

That's rubbish, I explained why in my post if you read the whole thing.

Maybe there are some agreements out there that fit your idea of an endorsement, but there's plenty that don't.