bass solos in jazz

[Luulox]

I am pretty new to listening to jazz and i have only a few jazz cd's, miles davis, John Coltrane and a single Paul Chambers cd. I only took an interest in jazz when i took up the bass a few months ago and i really enjoy the stuff i listen to but one thing puts me off, Bass solos! i understand this maybe quite sacrilegious on a site dedicated to bass, but i cant get into them at all. one minute Miles is doing great things with his trumpet and the next thing you know a bass solo pops up and drains the enthusiasm for a great song out of me. It seems like they are put in to punish you for listening to jazz. i now have new respect for the drum solo! Is it just me?
Cheers
Pete

[neilb]

Bilbo??????

[Cyrene]

[quote name='Luulox' post='1185260' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:04 PM']I am pretty new to listening to jazz and i have only a few jazz cd's, miles davis, John Coltrane and a single Paul Chambers cd. I only took an interest in jazz when i took up the bass a few months ago and i really enjoy the stuff i listen to but one thing puts me off, Bass solos! i understand this maybe quite sacrilegious on a site dedicated to bass, but i cant get into them at all. one minute Miles is doing great things with his trumpet and the next thing you know a bass solo pops up and drains the enthusiasm for a great song out of me. It seems like they are put in to punish you for listening to jazz. i now have new respect for the drum solo! Is it just me?
Cheers
Pete[/quote]
depends upon who's playing them.
Although I was never really a fan of Paul Chambers' bowed passages I still like the odd fours he trades when he's plucking.
Now if it was Scott LaFaro, Charlie Haden or Henry Grimes I could listen all day long.
It all depends upon the context for me too. Those live gigs at the Five Spot or VV you expect some soloing, the van Gelder or Koenig recording sessions of the '50s and '60s did become a bit formulaic (don't shoot me for saying that).
A lot of recent (ie. last 30 years) ECM stuff has bass solo at length. SOme good, some out of place IMO.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='neilb' post='1185281' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:20 PM']Bilbo??????[/quote]Allow me.

Art is expression. Those who follow art and expression, will work out what they like and don't like.

[risingson]

It's not 'sacrilege' to dislike a bass solo, I'm sure there's just as strong a contingency of people on this site that would agree with you. But jazz is about freeform and expression, and there have been some serious theoretical and technical jumps from people like Paul Chambers, Ron Carter and Charles Mingus who have been able to push the envelope with their formidable soloing skills. It's up to you what you like hearing from music though, what you're stating is purely your opinion, some might agree, and I'm sure some others won't.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='Luulox' post='1185260' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:04 PM']I am pretty new to listening to jazz and i have only a few jazz cd's, miles davis, John Coltrane and a single Paul Chambers cd. I only took an interest in jazz when i took up the bass a few months ago and i really enjoy the stuff i listen to but one thing puts me off, Bass solos! i understand this maybe quite sacrilegious on a site dedicated to bass, but i cant get into them at all. one minute Miles is doing great things with his trumpet and the next thing you know a bass solo pops up and drains the enthusiasm for a great song out of me. It seems like they are put in to punish you for listening to jazz. i now have new respect for the drum solo! Is it just me?
Cheers
Pete[/quote]

I can see your point of view here. However, the horribly compressed sound of most CDs doesn't do justice to the live sound of a double bass. If you experience a decent double bass solo live, you'll perhaps see the point. You feel it as well as hear it. So much gets lost with those tacky silver beermats.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='risingson' post='1185289' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:26 PM']It's not 'sacrilege' to dislike a bass solo, I'm sure there's just as strong a contingency of people on this site that would agree with you. But jazz is about freeform and expression, and there have been some serious theoretical and technical jumps from people like Paul Chambers, Ron Carter and Charles Mingus who have been able to push the envelope with their formidable soloing skills. It's up to you what you like hearing from music though, what you're stating is purely your opinion, some might agree, and I'm sure some others won't.[/quote]Excellent post, Pete.

[ras52]

[quote name='risingson' post='1185289' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:26 PM']. . . jazz is about freeform . . .[/quote]
But often it's the opposite, very formal: we play the tune, everyone takes a turn at playing a solo, then we play the tune again. And it's that context that you're likely the find the least inspiring solos - bass or otherwise.

[derrenleepoole]

I think a lot of classic jazz suffers in terms of recording quality, particularly in the bass department. Not that they're bad recordings, it's just that the recording of the bass instrument and all the fundamentals of it's complex tone are now better captured on recordings than they were 20/30/40+ years ago. Quite often the bass is there, but it lacks any real presence or punch so will seem lacklustre.

Listen to todays bass heavy jazz groups such as Phronesis, Esbjorn Svensson Trio, Trio Elf and the bass is big, it's boomy and it's full of life and character. I think this goes someway into delivering a more engaging bass experience. What you're hearing on these recordings is more akin to what you'd hear live and I think this helps. Well, it does for me

[risingson]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1185297' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:37 PM']Excellent post, Pete.[/quote]

I thank you [s]Pete[/s] Steve

[quote]But often it's the opposite, very formal: we play the tune, everyone takes a turn at playing a solo, then we play the tune again. And it's that context that you're likely the find the least inspiring solos - bass or otherwise.[/quote]

The formalities of Jazz certainly exist, but I would be very turned off by listening to a group of musicians that worked in the way you describe. It's not a prerequisite for [u]everyone[/u] to solo, and I know many, many good players who are good at knowing when to hold back and say as little as possible and get across what they mean without having to take a solo. It's about good musicianship, and not about just rolling out on the formalities of going round the stage and making each player take a solo.

Edited April 1, 2011 by risingson

[steve-soar]

Errrrrr, recently listened to Ornette, The Shape of Jazz To Come, Art Blakey and lots of Mingus on vinyl from 50 years ago.

The bass is fine.

[Rich]

Bass solos in jazz... why?

Why not?

[Doddy]

[quote name='ras52' post='1185298' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:37 PM']But often it's the opposite, very formal: we play the tune, everyone takes a turn at playing a solo, then we play the tune again. And it's that context that you're likely the find the least inspiring solos - bass or otherwise.[/quote]

I'm going to have to disagree here. Some of the best solos have been in those formal confines. Miles,Coltrane,Hancock,
Metheny,Brown...they've all played brilliant solos within the head-solo-head format.

As far as not liking bass solos,that's up to you. However,I would never call guys like Paul Chambers,Scott LaFaro,Ray Brown,
Charles Mingus,Oscar Pettiford and NHOP unexciting.

Is it just the Upright guys whose solos you don't dig or is it the electric guys too-guys like Patitucci,Jaco,Mark Egan,or Gwizdala etc?

[Blademan_98]

It's all subjective. Some think that bass should not be a lead instrument.

If it sounds good, just play it

I prefer driving bass lines and leave the lead to a guitar keyboard saxaphone etc.

But that's just me.

I don't know enough about jazz to comment.

[thisnameistaken]

I've never been excited by bass solos either. Some musicians are excellent and happen to be playing bass (like Ray Brown) but when it's your typical bass solo where the guy at the back needs to demonstrate he's got chops for a few bars before he goes back to playing two notes a bar for the rest of the night... well I'm sure it made him feel better but I could've done without it.

[lovetheblues]

For me it depends on if the solo adds to the music of the song OR sometimes I can just appreciate the talent behind the solo.

[Bilbo]

I like the good ones but not the bad ones

Definition of a double bass solo? The bit you can't hear in the car.

[Mykesbass]

A scientific expedition disembarks from its plane at the final outpost of civilization in the deepest Amazon rain forest. They immediately notice the ceaseless thrumming of native drums. As they venture further into the bush, the drums never stop, day or night, for weeks.

The lead scientist asks one of the natives about this, and the native's only reply is "Drums good. Drums never stop. Very BAD if drums stop."

The drumming continues, night and day, until one night, six weeks into the trip, when the jungle is suddenly silent. Immediately the natives run screaming from their huts, covering their ears. The scientists grab one boy and demand "What is it? The drums have stopped!"

The terror-stricken youth replies "Yes! Drums stop! VERY BAD!"

The scientists ask "Why? Why? What will happen?"

Wild-eyed, the boy responds,

























" . . . BASS SOLO!!!" -

[lowdown]

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1185534' date='Apr 2 2011, 08:04 AM']A scientific expedition disembarks from its plane at the final outpost of civilization in the deepest Amazon rain forest. They immediately notice the ceaseless thrumming of native drums. As they venture further into the bush, the drums never stop, day or night, for weeks.

The lead scientist asks one of the natives about this, and the native's only reply is "Drums good. Drums never stop. Very BAD if drums stop."

The drumming continues, night and day, until one night, six weeks into the trip, when the jungle is suddenly silent. Immediately the natives run screaming from their huts, covering their ears. The scientists grab one boy and demand "What is it? The drums have stopped!"

The terror-stricken youth replies "Yes! Drums stop! VERY BAD!"

The scientists ask "Why? Why? What will happen?"

Wild-eyed, the boy responds,


" . . . BASS SOLO!!!" -[/quote]



Drum roll....Segue the next old one.
Bass solos, Gentlemen and don't...



Garry

Edited April 2, 2011 by lowdown

[Clarky]

Try the live albums made by Scott Lafaro with the Bill Evans trio just before he died (tragic, car crash in his 20s, just as he was hitting new heights in playing and innovation) - 'Waltz for Debbie' for example. Lafaro leads the melody very often as well as combining this with his role as back line. Stunning stuff and the solos are almost always very listenable as they are so melodic.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Rich' post='1185343' date='Apr 1 2011, 10:09 PM']Bass solos in jazz... why?

Why not? [/quote]


And because all those guys mentioned above can.....




Garry

[bassace]

When I'm out with the seven piece I get maybe one chorus per gig. I'm happy with that; my job is to drive the band along. But when I play with a trio I get quite a few solos because the other two players need me to take some of the solo load off them. Also there's more interplay in a trio format. You'll hear this reflected in CDs.

The guy who broke the mould was James Blanton who died tragically young in his twenties. He broke away from simple four to the bar in his playing and Duke Ellington, recognising his talent, made sure he was forward in the mix. Just one bass player did a lot for a whole orchestra - probably the foremost of its time - and we as bass players should celebrate that.

[ras52]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1185345' date='Apr 1 2011, 10:09 PM']I'm going to have to disagree here. Some of the best solos have been in those formal confines. Miles,Coltrane,Hancock,
Metheny,Brown...they've all played brilliant solos within the head-solo-head format.[/quote]
I agree with your disagreement :-) Some of the best solos, yes, but also some of the worst! I'm thinking of gigs I've seen where the bass player puts in a half-hearted solo, leading me to think that he'd rather not but that the form and/or bandmates required it.

[lowdown]

[quote name='bassace' post='1185581' date='Apr 2 2011, 09:35 AM']The guy who broke the mould was James Blanton who died tragically young in his twenties. He broke away from simple four to the bar in his playing and Duke Ellington, recognising his talent, made sure he was forward in the mix. Just one bass player did a lot for a whole orchestra - probably the foremost of its time - and we as bass players should celebrate that.[/quote]


So, So true......

Jimmy Blanton [pizz]



[Arco + Pizz]




Garry

Edited April 2, 2011 by lowdown

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Luulox' post='1185260' date='Apr 1 2011, 09:04 PM']...the next thing you know a bass solo pops up and drains the enthusiasm for a great song out of me. It seems like they are put in to punish you for listening to jazz. i now have new respect for the drum solo! Is it just me?[/quote]

No it's not just you, other's have expressed similar views on this thread and on previous similar threads in the past. Some people don't like bass doing anything other than producing a low end that can rarely be heard and others like bassists who come to the fore (and there's a whole bunch in between).

If you don't like a tune because of the bass solo then don't bother listening to it. There's plenty of Jazz (and other music) where the bassists do not solo, so it's not like you don't have a choice.