Markbass-old hat

[lushuk]

Around a couple of years ago the board was Markbass crazy, now there seems loads for sale everyday, is there a reason for this or is it just a trend at the moment?

[stinson]

There's always a craze for something new, as there was for Markbass. Still loving my LMII after many years!

[PVTele]

[quote name='lushuk' post='1128136' date='Feb 15 2011, 11:21 AM']is there a reason for this...?[/quote]
TC Electronic?

[Conan]

[quote name='PVTele' post='1128153' date='Feb 15 2011, 11:31 AM']TC Electronic?[/quote]

Seems to be quite a few of [i]them[/i] getting offloaded at the moment too!

[ahpook]

[quote name='lushuk' post='1128136' date='Feb 15 2011, 11:21 AM']...is there a reason for this or is it just a trend at the moment?[/quote]

GAS.

[Muzz]

TC definitely isn't emperors new clothes, it's simply another amp option which may or may not suit individuals.

Just like Markbass stuff.

Most of us don't have don't have easy access to anywhere we can A-B all the options these days, so buying without playing is common, and specs and others opinions don't tell the full story. Even stuff tried extensively in music shops can behave very differently in a band context, so it's natural kit flies around secondhand for all sorts of reasons - and I haven't even touched on GAS yet...

[Musicman20]

MB is great dont get me wrong, but the micro amp market has exploded recently.

Believe me, the TC amp is incredible. It takes a lot to impress me amp wise, but they have nailed the 'modern SVT in a small box'.

[lemmywinks]

Markbass must have sold many more units than the other micro-head manufacturers so it stands to reason that there will be a few knocking around the FS section - the LMII in particular must have shifted a fair bit.

Also people might be flogging MB gear to buy the new MB gear! I remember when the LMIII came out there was a sudden influx of used LMII amps for sale.

[RichF]

the streamliner 900 and 600 and tonehammer 500 will be the flavour of 2011. Unfortunately cant wait until Spring 2012 till they start to appear on the "for sale" board. I need an amp now. A decent 2nd hand Markbass is a serious option given it's half the price of the new GB and aggie stuff. I cant help but think the streamliner despite its recent PR nightmare on TB is a good evolution in that SVT in a micro head market.

Edited February 15, 2011 by RichardFoggo

[niceguyhomer]

I'm a habitual MB user and currently have an LM Tube 500 which is very good. I quite fancy a GB Streamliner for some extra headroom but after all the hoohaa on Talkbass I'm going to sit back and watch for a while.

[chris_b]

I rated my LM2 very highly. It had a great tone with my cabs, but I found I preferred the Thunderfunk by a slim margin. I wouldn't rule out getting another MB amp in the future.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='1128825' date='Feb 15 2011, 08:07 PM']I'm a habitual MB user and currently have an LM Tube 500 which is very good. I quite fancy a GB Streamliner for some extra headroom but after all the hoohaa on Talkbass I'm going to sit back and watch for a while.[/quote]

This is my stance. Im a bit miffed about the problems they have had....I dont want to take the plunge and they release another like GK did with the MB.

[fretmeister]

I love MB

Went to them a few years ago, sold, went Ampeg, rack etc etc, then to an F1 with a Tecamp, and now back to a CMD 102P combo which I adore.

It really is the sound in my head.

[Roland Rock]

From a superficial angle, maybe yellow is out this season. The distinctive colour scheme/looks may be a factor. The current trend seems to be more for the vintage fender/valve amp look.

[Musicman20]

I think they have a new line due out, and we will all love them again! I nearly sold my LM3 this week, but due to financial issues, I am not 'upgrading it', and to be honest, its the one amp I use if I need a totally clean and sleek sound with crisp high end.

Nice kit, and I like the fact its all made in Italy and not out sourced.

The website is currently down...for an update.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Musicman20

[51m0n]

MB is definitely not old hat.

They were pretty much the first to get a great sounding ultralightweight head that hit really big though, and have continued to innovate. The LMII sold more than any other lightweight head for a good long while.

However since then a lot of other manufacturers have come on board the market, and so there is bound to be a lot of people moving their current amp on to try something else out.

Personally the TC never did it for me, I guess I'm old school enough that I want a single box to be a really good single tool, so if it goes wrong I'm not totally lost? I also hate multi function controls - comes from doing a lot of UI design, a single control should ideally have a single function. MB isnt perfect in this regard, but TC is off the scale bad for overloading controls as far as I can tell...

[Low End Bee]

I tried one for the first time a few weeks ago when I picked up my bass that was in for some work.

Great, full bodied snarly tone. I was very impressed.

If they do a model that has the dirtiness I like I'd certainly consider one itf the Orange Terror ever packs up.

[Muzz]

Can't see the RH450 as "off the scale bad", despite having got a lot of features into a small box. The 'shifted' features (which I'm presuming you mean by the multifuntion controls) are really fine tuning stuff, like the semi-para EQ and the compression, the rest is straightforward - the presets can help there. Want to add compression? Press Shift (it lights up), turn the knob. Want to increase the input gain? Press Shift (the light goes out), turn the same knob. The head's about as hard to use as a car stereo once you give it 5 minutes, and pretty intuitive. Having said that, there's a lot of folk who can't work their car stereo - my Mrs included Horses for courses, but then I know people who've no idea what VPF and VLE are, either

If you've only got one amp, then unless you're DIing, you're stuffed if it goes down, whether it's got lots of features or none. By your 'single box' reasoning, I guess you'd have a power amp and a pre, then?

Edited February 16, 2011 by Muzz

[algmusic]

The main reason is GAS..

I think MB are great, I did sell mine, not because I hated, I just want a different sound (Terror Bass).. If I could have I would have kept the MB and also bought the TB..

I don't think I think MB are very good a the solid state sound.. simple and warm and clean..

I didn't get on with the Tc either, but I know alot do..

I love the fact there is so much choice these days.. it's not just Ampeg, Ashdown, Trace, Messa, Laney

we lots more like aggie, TC, MB, and lots of hybrid amps just name a few

I also think we have more choices of lightweight small amps.. Technically the day of 'big-rigs' are gone.. They look great and sound great, but they are heavy and big.. most of the new amps come very close to these 'big' sounds and you don't have to grow a tail to use them ;-)

I don't think there is one amp for everything as everyone is looking for a different sounds and what I call Hi-fi maybe what someone calls natural..

[51m0n]

[quote name='Muzz' post='1129412' date='Feb 16 2011, 11:31 AM']Can't see the RH450 as "off the scale bad", despite having got a lot of features into a small box. The 'shifted' features (which I'm presuming you mean by the multifuntion controls) are really fine tuning stuff, like the semi-para EQ and the compression, the rest is straightforward - the presets can help there. Want to add compression? Press Shift (it lights up), turn the knob. Want to increase the input gain? Press Shift (the light goes out), turn the same knob. The head's about as hard to use as a car stereo once you give it 5 minutes, and pretty intuitive. Having said that, there's a lot of folk who can't work their car stereo - my Mrs included Horses for courses, but then I know people who've no idea what VPF and VLE are, either

If you've only got one amp, then unless you're DIing, you're stuffed if it goes down, whether it's got lots of features or none. By your 'single box' reasoning, I guess you'd have a power amp and a pre, then? [/quote]

Well, in terms of a single control does a single job, you have just explained with great detail exactly how much of the functionality of the amp is not given a dedicated control. In terms of interface design this is not as good as a single control. Obviously their desire to make the amp very small, yet have many inbuilt functions led them to this, however compared to an interface with a single control per funtion (ie the MB heads) it is off the scale bad, (IMO).

Nothing against the sound of the amp, and if it works for you fine, but I cant easily play a note, hold down a shift key and turn a knob at the same time, so I cant very easily set up the parametric eq frequencies properly. Of course as soon as you have a latched shift knob then you are providing a possiblity for a control to be changed when the other control was intended to be chnaged. LIghts or no lights, its just not as good an interface as a single control per knob.

Also the frequency shift on a semi parametric eq is not a secondary function, its equally primary to the function of that eq as the gain, some might say the frequency is in fact the primary control even. To put it into the interface as a secondary control (ie the one you have to shift to reach) just shows how poor this semiparametric was actually thought through IMO.

Same goes for compression, its not a secondary function of my rig, its of equal primary concern to me, otherwise I wouldnt have got a decent compressor, and learnt how to use it properly.

I didnt know the input gain was a shift related control though, thats just bonkers IMO. Its the single most important control on an amp, closely followed by the output volume. If it is set wrong you either overload the amp, or adversely affect your signal to noise ratio. Set just right (in the sweet spot of that particular circuit) the amp will perform at its very best.

Thing is this amp is trying to be all things to all men, a simple amp with a simple 3 or 4 control eq, and a bit of dirt, and at the same time a complex properly tuneable eq system, with complex compression, and fine tuneable controls, with a tuner built in, and memory storage of the parameters, all in a box that weighs nothing and is tiny. Its an admirable effort, but something has to give, and in this case it is the interface. Whether you can get on with it or not is immaterial, and in fact subjective, the mere fact that many of the controls are overloaded is the key point, and means that as an interface goes its very complex to use compared to a single control per parameter interface. Smaller too though.

I dont have a seperate pre/power amp, I do have a seperate amp though, which I can easily hook up to my compressor and tuner.

The MB stuff isnt perfect either, for instance the sa450 mid eq controls have the frequency where the gain should be and vice versa IMO, highly counterintuitive, and something that still catches me out to this day. But other than that its bang on.

The key to a simple easy to use interface is orthogonal control systems, ie everything works the same as everything else, and ultimately the more parameters you can give a seperate control for the easier that is to achieve.

Again the MB heads fail here slightly in that it is not clear enough that the off for VPL and VLE is fully counter-clockwise, whilst for the eq gain controls it is dead center. Nothing is quite perfect I guess!

Edited February 16, 2011 by 51m0n

[Musicman20]

I do have to point out how MB tried to cram EVERYTHING into the F500, and the controls are very strange to use. It didnt have the feel of the LM3 at all to my hands. It felt a little bit delicate.

The Gain on the RH450 is accessed normally, then if you press shift, the compressor can be tweaked.

I do know that compression can be important, but I must admit, the RH450 compressor works very very well indeed. Its not hugely complex, but they know how work these things from their past efforts in effects and studio gear.

The LM3 is simple to use, but the RH450 is far superior to most other amps that try to add extra features. Why? Because for once, they all actually work damn well, and arent just there for fun.

Ive never had a semi-parametric EQ, and it works very well and fluid on this amp.

Again, I like MB and TC, so Im not fussed.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Musicman20

[Muzz]

Simon, I think it'd be better if you'd actually used the RH450 controls before commenting in such (incorrect) detail - the shift key doesn't need to be held down, once it's pressed, the para EQ mode is on, press again, it's off. You can then play a note and turn a knob. I'd consider it an advanced feature - the normal EQ works just fine, too. The input gain is the main function of that particular knob (its default), the other is the compressor, which is so effective I've found it to be pretty much 'set and forget'.

All details, and really neither here nor there.

Yes, it is all subjective, but to be honest, you need to use one for, ooh, five minutes before it (might) become apparent that the controls are actually pretty intuitive. Perhaps the manual doesn't read very well - I couldn't comment, I've never read it.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Muzz' post='1129662' date='Feb 16 2011, 02:11 PM']Simon, I think it'd be better if you'd actually used the RH450 controls before commenting in such (incorrect) detail - the shift key doesn't need to be held down, once it's pressed, the para EQ mode is on, press again, it's off. You can then play a note and turn a knob. I'd consider it an advanced feature - the normal EQ works just fine, too. The input gain is the main function of that particular knob (its default), the other is the compressor, which is so effective I've found it to be pretty much 'set and forget'.

All details, and really neither here nor there.

Yes, it is all subjective, but to be honest, you need to use one for, ooh, five minutes before it (might) become apparent that the controls are actually pretty intuitive. Perhaps the manual doesn't read very well - I couldn't comment, I've never read it. [/quote]


I think was the reason I didn't get on with it. It's too complicated for a simpleton like me.. On paper, I see why people like it, but just a personal taste thing for me.. but I'd like to try it with a few other cabs. I've tried it with a 2x12 and its really wasn't saying much to me

[51m0n]

[quote name='Muzz' post='1129662' date='Feb 16 2011, 02:11 PM']Simon, I think it'd be better if you'd actually used the RH450 controls before commenting in such (incorrect) detail - the shift key doesn't need to be held down, once it's pressed, the para EQ mode is on, press again, it's off. You can then play a note and turn a knob. I'd consider it an advanced feature - the normal EQ works just fine, too. The input gain is the main function of that particular knob (its default), the other is the compressor, which is so effective I've found it to be pretty much 'set and forget'.

All details, and really neither here nor there.

Yes, it is all subjective, but to be honest, you need to use one for, ooh, five minutes before it (might) become apparent that the controls are actually pretty intuitive. Perhaps the manual doesn't read very well - I couldn't comment, I've never read it. [/quote]

I dont think I worded my response very well. I was trying to point out the two possible uses of a shift key, latched or unlatched, and how both have issues. If you re-read my post with that in my that you'll see what I was getting at (I describe the problems with both systems). I admit it was typed hurriedly though!

Changing the frequency of a sweep eq is not an advanced feature, its the point of the eq. However they are really saying this is a standard eq, but you might like to tweak the frequencies sometimes, then leave them alone. Its different, not massively, but nevertheless you need to use more controls to achieve the same goal (fine tuning the eq) than with a system with dedicated gain and frequency controls, where you wouldnt need to keep on reacing for the shift button. I tend to set my eq for the room as much as the bass/rig, and therefore I rely on instant acces to eq frequency points to do this efficiently. It comes from a background equally involved in sound engineering as bass playing.

Honestly its not an issue if you dont find it an issue, I dont know of any amp manufacturer that you couldnt take potshots at (F500 a case in point). I come from very much the old school console interface as being the best way to do it. Nothing compares to the speed you can get with a full on hardware console, and that ethos applies to all control systems.

I spent a good half an hour trying an RH450 when they came out, and thought it to be an admirable contender in the micro amp market, I am not having a go at the amp per se, but the point I am trying to make is that when you load that much functionality into that few controls then somewhere you make a compromise, in this case its overloading controls, in the case of the MB F500 its stacking controls. Neither is great, and personally I'd rather run with an amp with a better interface (ie the sa450 rather than an LMII) even if the functionality is absolutely identical. Then again I may be something of a zealot in this regard!

Edited February 16, 2011 by 51m0n

[Muzz]

Yep, I can completely see why there might be just too much on the thing for some - I'm a bit like that with basses - more than 1 pickup is pretty much wasted on me: it took me a loooong time to get on with my P/J setup. I could honestly live with a bass with one pickup and an on/off switch* - actually, I wouldn't need that, because the RH450 has a mute on its floorboard.



* As long as the sound was there, natch...