Janek and Hadrien

[mcgraham]

[quote]There's no doubting their Jedi like skills and fretboard w*nkery, but where's the heart man?[/quote]

I find some of Janek's and Matt's arrangement emotive, whilst I would not say I find many of your listed bassists to be emotive. More energetic - yes, serving the song better - yes, fitting a more commercially viable and mainstream genre - yes, but I wouldn't say Janek/Matt/Hadrien had any less/more heart than some that you mentioned.

Faithless, the little I've heard of Oli did nothing for me. Not that it was bad! It just didn't do much for me so I didn't listen any further.

[4000]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='888099' date='Jul 7 2010, 09:01 AM']I appreciate people have their opinions and favourite players, but to say Marcus doesn't groove is like saying Pavarotti can't sing. Just because you don't like Opera, you still can't deny he is a great singer.

If Marcus couldn't groove, do you think he'd be one of the world's most sought after session players?

I just think some people on here think it's cool to admit not liking him.[/quote]

I don't agree. Groove is about feeling and is a subjective issue. If I don't like his groove then my opinion is as valid as that of someone who loves his groove. If everyone else thinks he grooves great, fine, I have no problem with that. But my opinion still stands. FWIW I believe I actually qualified my initial comment by saying that I don't personally [i]like[/i] his groove. Am I not allowed to have that opinion either?

As for "thinking it's cool to admit to not liking him", now that really [i]is[/i] laughable. Why can't you just accept that some people simply won't like his playing? I happily accept that there will be many people who don't like players that I like, because everyone has a different perspective on playing. That's one of the things that makes music so interesting. I don't not like Marcus because it's cool not to like Marcus (the thought never crossed my mind and is utterly ridiculous anyway; I would never have thought it was cool not to like Marcus. Why would that be cool? I would've thought if anything the opposite would be true). I simply don't like what he does or how he sounds. Get over it.

I can't understand why people so often think their opinions are absolute truths rather than just that; opinions.

[Rich]

[quote name='burno70' post='888186' date='Jul 7 2010, 10:42 AM']fretboard w*nkery[/quote]
*sigh* it was only a matter of time.

[XB26354]

I hate to trot this one out in this kind of debate, but the value of anyone's opinion on a subject is related to their knowledge and experience of the subject.
As I don't personally know the vast majority of Basschatters I take most people's opinions with a large dose of salt (including my own!)
Likes and dislikes are by nature a very personal thing, and aren't really worth arguing about, as no-one is likely to change the opinion of someone with a differing view.


However, check out what he has played on - [url="http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:gifwxqtgld6e~T4"]http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&a...gifwxqtgld6e~T4[/url] - yes, 8 pages of credits going back 30 years.

If he didn't groove or satisfy other peoples' need he would not have had such a long career. You can say the same about Will Lee, Chuck Rainey, Freddie Washington, Anthony Jackson, Abe Laboriel, Neil Stubenhaus or any of the top studio guys from the 70's that are still active. They're from a different generation, but have had careers that guys like Janek and Hadrien will never be able to match due to the changes in the way that music is made over the last 30 years. It's also great that guys like John Paul Jones, Geddy Lee, Geezer Butler, John Entwistle et al played in basically one band for most of their peak period. It's a different approach but I don't think anyone can say that one way of making music is better than another, just different.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of MM's solo slap groove smooth jazz records, but he [i]can[/i] groove. No-one plays with all those artists without something special.

[urb]

Wow this thread is still rocking - I'm not entirely sure where it's heading though - loads of good valid points on the whys and wherefores of solo-istic bassists being able to groove as well - and Marcus - I agree with Mark's post above - he's an immense all round musician who can play a ton of different instruments, produce, arrange, score and program AND play great bass either in support or as a soloist...

Personally I think solo-istic bass-led projects are now sounding a bit dated and that a more band-focused, melody-driven way of doing things is far more the order of the day - for me melody and groove are the most important things in music - and bass solos are all very well and nice but personally speaking I'm happy with one or two a night and far happier grooving and supporting the rest of the band.

Being a strong soloist is great but not at the expense of all the other aspects that make someone a great musician - I don't listen to Squarepusher for the bass playing but for the music... and don't forget Matt G was on the Whitney H tour playing low bass lines - the man CAN groove like a mutha if he needs to.

[4000]

This is what I actually said : "[b]I don't find[/b] his groove that good at all. However I feel that I prefer players who push/drive/swing more than he does".

I didn't say he couldn't groove. I also qualified my comment. I then further qualified my comment (yes, I'm repeating myself yet again) by saying I didn't personally like his feel. I'm not sure what it is about what I've said that is so difficult to grasp. It appears some people have taken offence at something they think I've said (that I didn't actually say) and have gone off on one.

FWIW, I don't feel that "good groove" is an absolute. It is all a question of taste. It may be that there is a collective agreement about what constitutes good groove, in the same way that there can be about what constitutes good or bad anything, but that doesn't mean that absolutely everyone must share that opinion.

[urb]

[quote name='4000' post='888410' date='Jul 7 2010, 01:42 PM']This is what I actually said : "[b]I don't find[/b] his groove that good at all. However I feel that I prefer players who push/drive/swing more than he does".

I didn't say he couldn't groove. I also qualified my comment. I then further qualified my comment (yes, I'm repeating myself yet again) by saying I didn't personally like his feel. I'm not sure what it is about what I've said that is so difficult to grasp. It appears some people have taken offence at something they think I've said (that I didn't actually say) and have gone off on one.

FWIW, I don't feel that "good groove" is an absolute. It is all a question of taste. It may be that there is a collective agreement about what constitutes good groove, in the same way that there can be about what constitutes good or bad anything, but that doesn't mean that absolutely everyone must share that opinion.[/quote]

Sounds fine to me - no one has to like someone else's playing just because it's the received wisdom that they are a GREAT player - you're perfectly entitled to dislike any aspect of Marcus' playing - I have absolutely not problem with that.

[4000]

Thanks Mike. Maybe I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought I had initially, but regardless, I hope I've got it across now.

Anyway, enough about MM, back to the Janek/Hadrien show.

BTW, is Matt Garrison definitely on at Bass day? There's nothing on the web page yet.

[Cairobill]

Interesting discussion...

I find Feraud and Garrison's albums drift in one ear and out the other. I occasionally like what Garrison does (when he's a sideman) but his own stuff is not my cup of tea. Feraud's solo album suffers from horrible production. It seems to be stuffed to the gills with spectrasonics presets to my ears. Not nice.

Gwizdala, though, seems to be a much more developed composer and has a greater interest in being a band leader than a soloist on his two solo records. There aren't many bass solos on his albums funnily enough which might surprise his detractors. I've seen Gwizdala in full on improv mode and he's very good. He's one of the few musicians I've seen who flows straight through his instrument - a very good improvisor.


CB

[urb]

[quote name='4000' post='888437' date='Jul 7 2010, 01:55 PM']Thanks Mike. Maybe I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought I had initially, but regardless, I hope I've got it across now.

Anyway, enough about MM, back to the Janek/Hadrien show.

BTW, is Matt Garrison definitely on at Bass day? There's nothing on the web page yet.[/quote]

As far as I know Matt wants to do it but is trying to work out how to make the most out of a UK visit - whether to do it solo or with his trio - hopefully he'll be here either way - I've seen / heard his new solo project with live loops and projections and it's really good - fingers crossed he'll be up for coming over - he's a top guy (very down to earth) and a very fine player - but obviously that's to my taste and not necessarily to anyone else's!

M

[Faithless]

Well, what about M Garrisson - I don't [i]like [/i]his stuff, but, then, I don't think it's problem for me, nor for other folks in here
[quote name='urb' post='888406' date='Jul 7 2010, 03:38 PM']Personally I think solo-istic bass-led projects are now sounding a bit dated and that a more band-focused, melody-driven way of doing things is far more the order of the day - for me melody and groove are the most important things in music - and bass solos are all very well and nice but personally speaking I'm happy with one or two a night and far happier grooving and supporting the rest of the band.[/quote]


Very well said, Mike.
What I do like about Janek (and I like probably everything about him..), is that his own stuff isn't a 'bass project'.
For me, it's rather a plain 'music project', led by a cracking bassist/composer, surrounded by a bunch of wonderful players, that 'do their thing' rather well.. And that's, what gets his thing goin', I think..


Hey, but wattabout Tony Grey? I've heard a few words about him, but,actually, I didn't have a chance to hear a single note, of what he's playing.. He doesn't seem to get much attention here, or on TB..

Anyone can give a few words on his music?

[mcgraham]

I've not bought Tony's albums but I did listen to the various clips - they didn't sway me enough for me to warrant buying either of his albums. I absolutely love his contribution to the Hiromi band though.

[dr1]

Tony Grey is a rare beast - my favourite "Fodera player". (If I am allowed here, as I prefere simplicity and the Funk )

[Rayman]

I, like Pete, have to pipe up for Marcus, one of my favourite playes. I too have grown tired of some of his slappy poppy solo stuff like some other people, but as part of a band, the man is a groove god for me, and no-one could ever convince me that he doesn't put his heart into every note he plays. That said, Steve Harris, Robbie Shakespeare and Jah Wobble are groove gods to me too. Horses for courses.

We'll none of us ever agree who's great and who isn't, we all like different stuff and different styles don't we?

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Rayman' post='888605' date='Jul 7 2010, 04:08 PM']We'll none of us ever agree who's great and who isn't, we all like different stuff and different styles don't we?[/quote]

It'd be a boring world if we all agreed on everything (apart from if we could all agree that I'm always right )

Anyway back to the subject(s). I like Tony Grey, a very tasteful player and I also like Janek (equally tasteful in his playing). I certainly think the music must be the most important thing. There's room for soloing or whatever as long as it fits in with the rest of the music and I tend to feel that both Tony and Janek are well aware of this when you listen to their compositions.

[KevB]

Well I'll no doubt get castigated for saying this (and won't give a toss frankly) but I've yet to see any of these clips from shows, demos, clinics and whatever that convince me that the bass guitar is actually a solo instrument at all. It's not really what is was first intended for. A bit of bass oriented sections of songs are fine (My Generation et al) but whole tunes featuring nothing but bass just don't do it for me (OK I can maybe make a bit of an exception for The Fish but only just). If someone is basically using something like a 6 or 7 or 8 string bass to extend the range up so it can be played like a guitar, then it's a guitar and he's playing a guitar solo (though maybe an octave lower).

[Doddy]

Everyone knows my opinion of Marcus Miller by now so I don't need to say anything. His discography speaks for
itself.

Tony Grey is a really good player with major chops. I like his last solo album,but I much prefer his work with Hiromi.
Interestingly,the Keyboard player and producer (and writer of some tracks)on his album 'Chasing Shadows',is
Oli Rockberger.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='KevB' post='888642' date='Jul 7 2010, 04:49 PM']Well I'll no doubt get castigated for saying this (and won't give a toss frankly) but I've yet to see any of these clips from shows, demos, clinics and whatever that convince me that the bass guitar is actually a solo instrument at all. It's not really what is was first intended for. A bit of bass oriented sections of songs are fine (My Generation et al) but whole tunes featuring nothing but bass just don't do it for me (OK I can maybe make a bit of an exception for The Fish but only just). If someone is basically using something like a 6 or 7 or 8 string bass to extend the range up so it can be played like a guitar, then it's a guitar and he's playing a guitar solo (though maybe an octave lower).[/quote]

Well, this is your opinion and there's no purpose in attempting to convince you to the contrary. But what I would say is, remember the 6 string guitar was not originally an instrument that was mean't to solo, in big bands it was just part of the rhythm section, as for the whole 6/7 or 8 string bass comparison with a guitar I'd tend to disagree. Whilst the frequency of the notes in the higher registers tend towards the guitar range (on such instruments), those playing them rarely play them like a guitarist would.

But this is now going off topic.

EDIT: But this is just my opinion

Edited July 7, 2010 by purpleblob

[Cairobill]

As a caveat to my praise of Gwizdala's work I do find Oli Rockberger's songwriting and singing to be amazingly middle of the road and vanilla. Maybe it's just me...

[Doddy]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='888180' date='Jul 7 2010, 10:33 AM']Speaking of singing, does anyone else think that some of the abovementioned guys might do well to write some lyrics and get a singer in? I know Janek does some songwriting performances with Oli Rockberger (his keys player), Marcus has collaborated with a few singers, and Matt G has utilised a jazz singer singing just notes rather than singing words... I was just wondering if any of you felt the music might benefit from some lyrics tying it together a bit more.[/quote]

I don't know about this. I don't think that lyrics would necessarily improve anything. One of the reasons that I dig these guys
albums is because I really like to listen to instrumental music. If the melodies are good,which I think a lot of them are,then
the material will stand up on its own.
Marcus' first two solo albums were pretty much all vocal based,and while they aren't bad,they are nowhere near as memorable
as his later,mostly-instrumental albums.

[urb]

[quote name='Doddy' post='888656' date='Jul 7 2010, 04:58 PM']I don't know about this. I don't think that lyrics would necessarily improve anything. One of the reasons that I dig these guys
albums is because I really like to listen to instrumental music. If the melodies are good,which I think a lot of them are,then
the material will stand up on its own.
Marcus' first two solo albums were pretty much all vocal based,and while they aren't bad,they are nowhere near as memorable
as his later,mostly-instrumental albums.[/quote]

Funnily enough I heard yesterday that Tony Grey is singing on his new album... so we'll have to wait and see if that was either inspired or a bad idea - I'm a big fan of Tony's work so I hope it's good

[mcgraham]

I'd be interested to hear that. I've often wondered about virtuoso instrumentalists whether they can apply their instrumental dedication to singing as another discipline.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='4000' post='888410' date='Jul 7 2010, 01:42 PM']This is what I actually said : "[b]I don't find[/b] his groove that good at all. However I feel that I prefer players who push/drive/swing more than he does".

I didn't say he couldn't groove. I also qualified my comment. I then further qualified my comment (yes, I'm repeating myself yet again) by saying I didn't personally like his feel. I'm not sure what it is about what I've said that is so difficult to grasp. It appears some people have taken offence at something they think I've said (that I didn't actually say) and have gone off on one.

FWIW, I don't feel that "good groove" is an absolute. It is all a question of taste. It may be that there is a collective agreement about what constitutes good groove, in the same way that there can be about what constitutes good or bad anything, but that doesn't mean that absolutely everyone must share that opinion.[/quote]

Fair enough. Good post.

Good groove, bad groove...now there's a thread in the making.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='888820' date='Jul 7 2010, 06:54 PM']I'd be interested to hear that. I've often wondered about virtuoso instrumentalists whether they can apply their instrumental dedication to singing as another discipline.[/quote]
The only one that springs to mind for me is Billy Sheehan (although maybe "virtuoso" is pushing it a bit)- he sang on 'Cosmic Troubadour'. Let's just say I'd rather listen to his bass playing...

[urb]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='888840' date='Jul 7 2010, 07:20 PM']The only one that springs to mind for me is Billy Sheehan (although maybe "virtuoso" is pushing it a bit)- he sang on 'Cosmic Troubadour'. Let's just say I'd rather listen to his bass playing...[/quote]

Wooten sings all the time and I have to say I quite like the fact he sings as good as he can and doesn't pretend to be some great singer - it just suits what he wants to 'say' in his music - I know he can get seriously cheesy sometimes but I'll forgive him as he is 'Victa'...