Janek and Hadrien

[mcgraham]

Indeed!

I know this isn't a Marcus Miller thread, but for the sake of discussion I have to say I find a lot of his bass solos really propel the groove of a song along in a way that the abovementioned players don't quite manage (at least to the same extent). I find his pieces/arrangements a little lack lustre overall, but once he's got a solid groove going he keeps it up. I'd say Victor Wooten also does reasonably well in this regard.

[Bilbo]

I agree that Miller does that but would also argue that his general concept is a little more wholistic than most so this is not surprising. My one criticism of Miller is that his 'thing' just leaves me cold. I like his funk grooves etc but, fundamentally, I have not heard anything by him that moves me. Same with Jeff Berlin's solo stuff, Victor Wooten etc. Great spectacle but no emotion.

[mcgraham]

I will join you in saying that some of his stuff does nothing for me. I also find that, despite the 'variety' in his different pieces, his overarching/overriding signature style makes them all sound very similar, or at least all his slower ballads sound tediously similar, all his funky groove pieces sound tediously similar etc. Although saying that, there is one particular phrase that MM used right at the end of his solo in 'Bruce Lee' that, to me, is as if he is making the bass 'scream', which I haven't heard anyone else do.

[Doddy]

I think that one of the most important things for bass players who are soloists,is having a band that can comp behind them
and fill out the sound. That's one area that Marcus has got sorted-when he's soloing his Keys player is often holding down the
low end so that there is still a full sound. I was listening to some of Janek's live stuff in the car earlier,and when he's soloing there
is some serious bass being supplied by the Keys. In these cases the function of the bass is still there-it's just that the instrument
that is supplying it has changed.
Marcus still grooves when he solos because of two reasons-one,he has a solid drummer behind,and two (most importantly) he spent
so many years in the studio making hundreds of records as a sideman where it was all about the groove and feel,that when it came time
for him to do his own thing,all that experience became part of his solo voice. This is where someone like Feraud falls down-I've never
heard him just lay down a simple groove as a sideman.He needs to do pop gig like Garrison and Gwizdala have done lately,where the
emphasis isn't on his chops.

[witterth]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='887413' date='Jul 6 2010, 03:31 PM']+1

I can remember seeing Janek playing for the first time (at one of the Bass days) and while I was impressed with his technical ability when he came to the end of one of his pieces and asked for questions I was sorely tempted to enquire who played bass in his band...[/quote]
class!

[4000]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='887494' date='Jul 6 2010, 04:34 PM']I agree that Miller does that but would also argue that his general concept is a little more wholistic than most so this is not surprising. My one criticism of Miller is that his 'thing' just leaves me cold. I like his funk grooves etc but, fundamentally, I have not heard anything by him that moves me. Same with Jeff Berlin's solo stuff, Victor Wooten etc. Great spectacle but no emotion.[/quote]

+1, although in Miller's case I don't personally find the spectacle that great either.

[Pete Academy]

I've just dived back into this thread.

For me, Marcus is the ultimate player - a groove monster who can hold it down, never a wasted note. Whenever he solos, it's always grooving. Some players can slap a solo and it becomes tedious after a while. Marcus never falls into that. He makes it look so easy, but believe me it isn't. He sometimes plays flash, but not very often.

Janek was featured on a Bassplayer TV video, leading a workshop some years ago. The late Hiram Bullock guested on acoustic guitar. It was the first time I'd seen him. His groove was unbelievable, and I thought 'this guy is something special'.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887678' date='Jul 6 2010, 07:15 PM']I've just dived back into this thread.

For me, Marcus is the ultimate player - a groove monster who can hold it down, never a wasted note. Whenever he solos, it's always grooving. Some players can slap a solo and it becomes tedious after a while. Marcus never falls into that. He makes it look so easy, but believe me it isn't. He sometimes plays flash, but not very often.

Janek was featured on a Bassplayer TV video, leading a workshop some years ago. The late Hiram Bullock guested on acoustic guitar. It was the first time I'd seen him. His groove was unbelievable, and I thought 'this guy is something special'.[/quote]

I was discussing this Janek clip with Doddy yesterday. If anyone can locate it (I can't seem to), you'll see what I mean. It's a small workshop affair.

Truly amazing groove.

[4000]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887678' date='Jul 6 2010, 07:15 PM']I've just dived back into this thread.

For me, Marcus is the ultimate player - a groove monster who can hold it down, never a wasted note. Whenever he solos, it's always grooving. Some players can slap a solo and it becomes tedious after a while. Marcus never falls into that. He makes it look so easy, but believe me it isn't. He sometimes plays flash, but not very often.

Janek was featured on a Bassplayer TV video, leading a workshop some years ago. The late Hiram Bullock guested on acoustic guitar. It was the first time I'd seen him. His groove was unbelievable, and I thought 'this guy is something special'.[/quote]

That's one of the things I don't really get about MM; I don't find his groove that good at all. However I feel that I prefer players who push/drive/swing more than he does. The first time I really listened to Marcus I bought a dvd, watched it through and thought, "?????". I just don't get anything about him. Can't stand his tone, don't like his feel or his sense of time and think his technique is pretty average. One of my least favourite players ever.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887689' date='Jul 6 2010, 07:25 PM']I was discussing this Janek clip with Doddy yesterday. If anyone can locate it (I can't seem to), you'll see what I mean. It's a small workshop affair.

Truly amazing groove.[/quote]

It looks like Bassplayer.tv doesn't exist anymore,which is a shame because that was a really cool clinic from around '06.
There is a more recent one on the Bass Player website though.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='4000' post='887749' date='Jul 6 2010, 08:26 PM']That's one of the things I don't really get about MM; I don't find his groove that good at all. However I feel that I prefer players who push/drive/swing more than he does. The first time I really listened to Marcus I bought a dvd, watched it through and thought, "?????". I just don't get anything about him. Can't stand his tone, don't like his feel or his sense of time and think his technique is pretty average. One of my least favourite players ever.[/quote]

Feel, sense of time? Average technique???

I'm gobsmacked. You can't be serious. Tell me this is a joke!

So who do you think achieves this?

[mcgraham]

4000, whilst I do like MM, I can certainly appreciate that if you don't dig his approach to groove then you won't click with most of his stuff. I think his technique is distinctly better and more advanced than the average bassist, but there are more chop-monster guys out there. Fortunately, I don't find that he lets his prowess dictate his music too much.

Pete, I watched that whole clinic when it was still online and found it very enjoyable. I like that Janek brings a fresh approachable stance to jazz in his arrangements. It's not overcomplicated to listen to, you (and your non-jazz-wise friends) can just sit back and appreciate the music for its aesthetic, you can listen to the solos with an analytical hat on, whatever. I wouldn't necessarily class it as jazz in the strictest sense, but for lack of a better word, and not knowing where the border of jazz ends and other genres begin, I'll call it jazz

[Pete Academy]

It is impossible to think MM doesn't possess a great groove. Laughable.

[mcgraham]

I'm not saying I agree with 4000, merely that I can appreciate if you don't MM's approach overall, then you won't like a lot of his back catalog.

Personally I think the guy is a monster of groove, and love all of his funky groove-laden numbers... but I will confess that I find every one of them (that I've heard) to sound the same/extremely similar... I like them! but I can appreciate that if you don't like his approach then there's a lot not to like.

[4000]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887758' date='Jul 6 2010, 08:38 PM']Feel, sense of time? Average technique???

I'm gobsmacked. You can't be serious. Tell me this is a joke!

So who do you think achieves this?[/quote]


I just don't [i]like[/i] his feel. I don't like the way he approaches a groove, I don't like where he sits. It doesn't (if you'll excuse the pun) sit with me. Such things are down to personal taste after all. I'm obviously not saying he's rubbish, just that nothing he does does anything for me. I could probably name a hundred players I prefer without breaking sweat. However, you may not like a lot of the guys I like, you may not like their rhythmic sense etc. It's no big deal. Technique-wise, I don't see that much at all (although he certainly slaps better than me, which isn't saying much!). There are a thousand guys with more chops. If he floats your boat, great. But for me, no, no, no. I think of him as the Eric Clapton of bass. Sorry!!! Some guys you just don't get; I saw Alan Holdsworth with Chad Wackerman (who at the time I'd never heard) and everyone was raving about Chad. However I didn't enjoy his playing at all. That's just the way it goes sometimes. Heck, I really don't find Angelina Jolie attractive either!

[4000]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887764' date='Jul 6 2010, 08:43 PM']It is impossible to think MM doesn't possess a great groove. Laughable.[/quote]

Why is it laughable? Can't I feel/hear things differently than you? Do I have to like the same things? I thought I qualified my comment by saying I prefer guys who push more.

I don't get on with Jazz Basses either. That's just me.

Edited July 6, 2010 by 4000

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887764' date='Jul 6 2010, 08:43 PM']It is impossible to think MM doesn't possess a great groove. Laughable.[/quote]

thats a pretty sweeping thing to say. as with all things bass, its horses for courses. I like his groove but i think there are far better groove players, far better slappers and far better technicians out there. I also know a few bassists out there who hate marcus' sound and feel

[chardbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='887758' date='Jul 6 2010, 08:38 PM']Feel, sense of time? Average technique???

I'm gobsmacked. You can't be serious. Tell me this is a joke!

So who do you think achieves this?[/quote]

+1
Yikes!

[4000]

It seems I've hit a nerve. Sacred cow anyone?

[mcgraham]

Marcus is a bit of a player's player with a lot of bassists.

[burno70]

Well I thought they were both crap!

[Pete Academy]

I appreciate people have their opinions and favourite players, but to say Marcus doesn't groove is like saying Pavarotti can't sing. Just because you don't like Opera, you still can't deny he is a great singer.

If Marcus couldn't groove, do you think he'd be one of the world's most sought after session players?

I just think some people on here think it's cool to admit not liking him.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Pete Academy

[mcgraham]

Speaking of singing, does anyone else think that some of the abovementioned guys might do well to write some lyrics and get a singer in? I know Janek does some songwriting performances with Oli Rockberger (his keys player), Marcus has collaborated with a few singers, and Matt G has utilised a jazz singer singing just notes rather than singing words... I was just wondering if any of you felt the music might benefit from some lyrics tying it together a bit more.

[burno70]

[quote]I just think some people on here think it's cool to admit not liking him.[/quote]

How is that cool? I don't understand your point.

I was only only joking when I said they were crap. It's just I tried listening to it, got about a minute in and got bored. It sounded like elevator Muzak to me. There's no doubting their Jedi like skills and fretboard w*nkery, but where's the heart man? I mean, I guess I much prefer band songs. Give me Harris, Burton, Butler, Jones, Zender, Flea and Commerford any day of the week.

[Faithless]

Well, speaking of Janek and Oli, it seems that Oli is songwriter himself, and I got quite 'contradictory' on him, hearing two tunes - one was perfomed at the Bassday 2008, that was quite awful for me, and there was another one called "Never Grow Up', that was performed in Rotherdam gig - amazing piece of music, for me..