Pete Academy Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='650162' date='Nov 9 2009, 10:01 PM']My Girl - Temptations Ooh Baby Baby - The Miracles To Many Fish In The Sea - The Marvelettes Heat Wave - Martha & The Vandellas This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers Where Did Our Love Go (U) - Diana/Supremes My Guy - Mary Wells Dancing In The Streets - Martha & The Vandellas Don't Mess With Bill - The Marvelettes Mickey's Monkey (U) - The Miracles Cloud Nine - Temptations My Baby Loves Me - Martha & The Vandellas Little Darling (I Need You) - 4 Tops I'm Ready For Love The Way You Do The Things You Do - Temptations You're All I Need To Get By - Temptations You Can't Hurry Love - Diana/Supremes Shop Around - The Miracles Take Me In Your Arms (And Rock Me A Little While) - Brenda Holloway My Baby Must Be A Magician - The Marvelettes Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart - Diana/Supremes Beauty Is Only Skin Deep - Temptations Going To A Go-Go - The Miracles Hitch Hike - Marvin Gaye I Second That Emotion - The Miracles Please Mr. Postman - The Marvelettes Jmmy Mack - Martha & The Vandellas Shake Me, Wake Me (When It's Over) - 4 Tops I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Temptations Get Ready - Temptations Stop! In The Name Of Love - Diana/Supremes Nowhere To Run - Martha & The Vandellas Seven Rooms Of Gloom - 4 Tops Pride & Joy - Marvin Gaye (I Know) I'm Losing You - Temptations Two Lovers - Mary Wells I'll Turn To Stone - 4 Tops Come See About Me - Diana/Supremes If I Were your Woman Gladys Knight & The Pips My World Is Empty Without You - Diana/Supremes The Tracks Of My Tears - The Miracles Can I Get A Witness - Marvin Gaye The Girls Alright With Me - Temptations Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Da Day - Stevie Wonder Reflections - Diana/Supremes What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin Quicksand... - Martha & The Vandellas Reach Out...I'll Be There - 4 Tops You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells The Bells - The Originals All in the Game - Four Tops My Baby - Temptations This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers My Whole World Ended (The Moment You Left) - David Ruffin It Takes Two - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell To Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye When Your Young And In Love - Marvelettes I Were Your Woman - Gladys Knight & the Pips It's Growing - The Temptations I Can't Get Next To You - Temptations Heart Breaking Guy - Supremes Mostly bubblegum and dross. Some great lines on paper but not great songs by my standards. You are allowed to disagree (how big of me) but that's what I think.[/quote] What????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxm Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 I'd have been proud to of written or been invloved in any of that 'lousy' material ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray5 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hey, I needed to get together a set-list of Motown songs. Thanks, Bilbo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I googled a list of Jamerson tunes and took out the ones I liked or hadn't heard. My point is not to dismiss a whole genre but to simply point out that, on an entirely subjective basis, great lines played by a great player won't make me 'like' material that I find a bit icky. 'My Girl' fails to move me in any way whatsoever. 'Jimmy Mack' is a load of old tosh 'Please Mr Postman'/ PLEEEEASE! It ain't rocket science. What this is is the Stock Aitken and Waterman of its day. Formulaic, repetitious, music as factory work. You like it because you are familiar with it and may have some emotional connection with it for some reason. I don't. I look at it as a part of the whole catalogue of available musics and I don't rate it that highly. I don't own any Motown material at all and don't want to. You can't avoid hearing it - its everywhere but I find most of it superficial and tedious. I play several of these Motown tunes in function bands: I Want You Back is one, a couple of Stevie Wonder tunes etc. Its ok and it goes down well but great music? I don't believe so. Before the bricks start flying, remember: my opinions don't mean squat and certainly don't mean that you can't like it just as much as you did before I wrote this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='650406' date='Nov 10 2009, 09:56 AM']I googled a list of Jamerson tunes and took out the ones I liked or hadn't heard. My point is not to dismiss a whole genre but to simply point out that, on an entirely subjective basis, great lines played by a great player won't make me 'like' material that I find a bit icky. 'My Girl' fails to move me in any way whatsoever. 'Jimmy Mack' is a load of old tosh 'Please Mr Postman'/ PLEEEEASE! It ain't rocket science. What this is is the Stock Aitken and Waterman of its day. Formulaic, repetitious, music as factory work. You like it because you are familiar with it and may have some emotional connection with it for some reason. I don't. I look at it as a part of the whole catalogue of available musics and I don't rate it that highly. I don't own any Motown material at all and don't want to. You can't avoid hearing it - its everywhere but I find most of it superficial and tedious. I play several of these Motown tunes in function bands: I Want You Back is one, a couple of Stevie Wonder tunes etc. Its ok and it goes down well but great music? I don't believe so. Before the bricks start flying, remember: my opinions don't mean squat and certainly don't mean that you can't like it just as much as you did before I wrote this [/quote] I agree [i]and[/i] I still like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Now look what you've all gone and done!! Bilbo's off on one again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='650469' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:10 AM']Now look what you've all gone and done!! Bilbo's off on one again![/quote] Its a hobby. Keeps me out of trouble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerdragon Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yeah, i know people who don't like the Beatles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Tedious, tosh, formulaic...reminds me of a lot of 'smooth' jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='650714' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:11 PM']Tedious, tosh, formulaic...reminds me of a lot of 'smooth' jazz.[/quote] Doesn't it? Tosh is tosh. Give it whatever label you like - you can't polish a turd Lighten up, guys!. I don't like Motown. Its not a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='650734' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:23 PM']Doesn't it? Tosh is tosh. Give it whatever label you like - you can't polish a turd Lighten up, guys!. I don't like Motown. Its not a crime.[/quote] Interesting, I think that what is lost on you in motown is very similar to what you try to point out to others in your various assertions regarding the artistry of many jazz performers. It seems to me that you possibly don't have a connection with what motown is for, eg it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured, it's for the lightness of spirit emanating from the need to shed the troubles of the working week and what it meant to be black in America at that time, it clings to Africa in that the players let down their hair and invite the listener in to a feel good half hour or so, and join in with a holler or a shuffle. I can see that compositionally some of the material is not substantially artistically challenging but would it fulfill the same role if it were? I doubt it... and surely any attempt for it to be that would miss the point. One of it's greatest attributes is that it's done by people who didn't have to think hard about what they are doing, because it's a very natural art form, or furrow their collective brow in trying to eke out the quintessential last drop of pained artistry from every note, they simply did what they did, and millions couldn't resist the urge to get to the dance floor and suspend the drudgery of the working week, the racism, the poverty. Some of history's great players went through the motown studios and their magic ingredient was how good it all felt. Thats what I reckon anyhow.... Edited November 10, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='651088' date='Nov 10 2009, 10:09 PM']Interesting, I think that what is lost on you in motown is very similar to what you try to point out to others in your various assertions regarding the artistry of many jazz performers. It seems to me that you possibly don't have a connection with what motown is for, eg it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured, it's for the lightness of spirit emanating from the need to shed the troubles of the working week and what it meant to be black in America at that time, it clings to Africa in that the players let down their hair and invite the listener in to a feel good half hour or so, and join in with a holler or a shuffle. I can see that compositionally some of the material is not substantially artistically challenging but would it fulfill the same role if it were? I doubt it... and surely any attempt for it to be that would miss the point. One of it's greatest attributes is that it's done by people who didn't have to think hard about what they are doing, because it's a very natural art form, or furrow their collective brow in trying to eke out the quintessential last drop of pained artistry from every note, they simply did what they did, and millions couldn't resist the urge to get to the dance floor and suspend the drudgery of the working week, the racism, the poverty. Some of history's great players went through the motown studios and their magic ingredient was how good it all felt. Thats what I reckon anyhow....[/quote]Well said Jake. Motown is the main driving force in modern popular music, it was of the people for the people and the white audience didn't even know what was happening. It took jazz, sex, soul, redemption, freedom, darkness, gospel, all the infuences of modern America, that had winnners and losers. It challenged rock and roll and made men, women, black, white, rich, poor feel good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='beerdragon' post='650709' date='Nov 10 2009, 05:08 PM']Yeah, i know people who don't like the Beatles.[/quote] Count me in then... Edited November 10, 2009 by Faithless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 ...and when you talk about destruction, you know that you can count me out, IN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='651088' date='Nov 10 2009, 10:09 PM']Interesting, I think that what is lost on you in motown is very similar to what you try to point out to others in your various assertions regarding the artistry of many jazz performers. It seems to me that you possibly don't have a connection with what motown is for, eg it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured, it's for the lightness of spirit emanating from the need to shed the troubles of the working week and what it meant to be black in America at that time, it clings to Africa in that the players let down their hair and invite the listener in to a feel good half hour or so, and join in with a holler or a shuffle. I can see that compositionally some of the material is not substantially artistically challenging but would it fulfill the same role if it were? I doubt it... and surely any attempt for it to be that would miss the point. One of it's greatest attributes is that it's done by people who didn't have to think hard about what they are doing, because it's a very natural art form, or furrow their collective brow in trying to eke out the quintessential last drop of pained artistry from every note, they simply did what they did, and millions couldn't resist the urge to get to the dance floor and suspend the drudgery of the working week, the racism, the poverty. Some of history's great players went through the motown studios and their magic ingredient was how good it all felt. Thats what I reckon anyhow....[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='651088' date='Nov 10 2009, 10:09 PM']Interesting, I think that what is lost on you in motown is very similar to what you try to point out to others in your various assertions regarding the artistry of many jazz performers. It seems to me that you possibly don't have a connection with what motown is for, eg it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured, it's for the lightness of spirit emanating from the need to shed the troubles of the working week and what it meant to be black in America at that time, it clings to Africa in that the players let down their hair and invite the listener in to a feel good half hour or so, and join in with a holler or a shuffle. I can see that compositionally some of the material is not substantially artistically challenging but would it fulfill the same role if it were? I doubt it... and surely any attempt for it to be that would miss the point. One of it's greatest attributes is that it's done by people who didn't have to think hard about what they are doing, because it's a very natural art form, or furrow their collective brow in trying to eke out the quintessential last drop of pained artistry from every note, they simply did what they did, and millions couldn't resist the urge to get to the dance floor and suspend the drudgery of the working week, the racism, the poverty. Some of history's great players went through the motown studios and their magic ingredient was how good it all felt. Thats what I reckon anyhow....[/quote] That makes good read Jake. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='651228' date='Nov 11 2009, 12:09 AM']That makes good read Jake. Garry[/quote] Cheers Garry. Sometimes think I'd make a better writer than bass player... and there's just as little money in that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='651088' date='Nov 10 2009, 10:09 PM']Interesting, I think that what is lost on you in motown is very similar to what you try to point out to others in your various assertions regarding the artistry of many jazz performers. It seems to me that you possibly don't have a connection with what motown is for, eg it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured, it's for the lightness of spirit emanating from the need to shed the troubles of the working week and what it meant to be black in America at that time, it clings to Africa in that the players let down their hair and invite the listener in to a feel good half hour or so, and join in with a holler or a shuffle. I can see that compositionally some of the material is not substantially artistically challenging but would it fulfill the same role if it were? I doubt it... and surely any attempt for it to be that would miss the point. One of it's greatest attributes is that it's done by people who didn't have to think hard about what they are doing, because it's a very natural art form, or furrow their collective brow in trying to eke out the quintessential last drop of pained artistry from every note, they simply did what they did, and millions couldn't resist the urge to get to the dance floor and suspend the drudgery of the working week, the racism, the poverty. Some of history's great players went through the motown studios and their magic ingredient was how good it all felt. Thats what I reckon anyhow....[/quote] Was thinking for ages how to reply to this, and you've nailed it far more eloquently than I could have ever done - great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='650734' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:23 PM']Doesn't it? Tosh is tosh. Give it whatever label you like - you can't polish a turd Lighten up, guys!. I don't like Motown. Its not a crime.[/quote] I reckon you could polish a turd. Freeze it until it's solid, apply a coat of lacquer, then give it a good buffing. Hey presto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) Just want to add folks that I'm not in the game of simply winning arguments here. Bilbo and I are friends and have conversed many times via PM about many subjects including a love of Jazz which we both have. The post I wrote that seems to say it for a few people is just the other side of the argument, and is designed to show motown to have the integrity that, in my eyes, does reside within it. I certainly am not looking to change anyones mind in their likes and dislikes. Jake Edited November 11, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Jake is absolutely right in contextualising the merits of Motown. I have absolutely no problem acknowledging the success of what these artists produced and its purpose and place in the market. Its historical and sociological contribution is discussed in detail elsewhere but that's not what I was attacking. My point was only to highlight the fact that a great bassline will not turn a piece of music I don't like into one that I do. If I don't like 'My Girl', it has nothing to do with the relative merits of its bassline. In superficial terms (i.e. on the basis that Jake believes this material was produced - it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured etc), it doesn't 'do it' for me, Jamerson or not. I find the same applies to most Motown. There are plenty of simple pieces that I love, most of which have no strong 'technical' elements to their production, just the right notes and the right chords in the right order etc. My favourite pieces are almost always not Jazz/Fusion/techncial/complex - they are simple pieces that move me. In a nutshell, the magic ingredient that is there in the pieces of music that effect me emotionally are seldom, if ever, there in Motown. To my ears, its mostly bubblegum and a great bass line doesn't make it otherwise. That, and only that, was my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer61 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='beerdragon' post='650709' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:08 PM']Yeah, i know people who don't like the Beatles.[/quote] [quote name='Faithless' post='651172' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:15 PM']Count me in then...[/quote] Ahem, me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Back to the Dan - I love the music and the basslines just think they're a bit up their own arts. Don't fancy seeing them live; they always look miserable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I love the irony that The Funk Brothers were all jazz musicians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickeyboro Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 What a thread I started! As for seeing em live, I had a ticket for the aborted 1974 tour when they peed off back home halfway thru - my pal saw them in London and continually reminded me what I'd missed! The I saw them in 2000 and, yes, musically impeccable but not exactly exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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