Bass Not Cutting Through The Mix

[Davy]

I have the classic issue of my bass isn't cutting through the mix very well at gigs.

I have no backline so I rely on my PA completely.

The problem I have is that I really like the 2 pickup mid-mid scoop type sound and while it sounds great in isolation, it's gets lost in the mix.

I also know that I should be pushing the mids to cut through and while I don't like the isolated sound, I'm sure it will cut through the band mix better.

So my question is which frequencies should I be cutting/pushing on my mixing desk(Behringer XR18).

For reference my pa speaker set up is 2x18 in bins and 2x12 tops.

Thanks in advance.

Edited 18 hours ago by Davy

[David Morison]

If you have the time during soundcheck, the best way of finding out what works for your particular band, taking account of the sound of the rest of the instruments, is to dial in a moderate mid boost, say 6dB, and sweep it upwards from say, 150Hz all the way to ~1500Hz. You'll hear pretty clearly what works & what doesn't that way.

 

[ezbass]

If you have the ability to blend your pickups, rather than just toggle switch, just favour the bridge a bit more, that will get you most of the way there. However, some sort of humped EQ curve from 250-750Hz should get the job done too.

[Downunderwonder]

Easiest thing to do is cut some bass and treble. Voila mids.

[spyder]

I have a similar problem with my passive two pickup bass and a Midas M18 with a Presonus PA. 

My solution is to use only 2- 3 db of  bass boost around 50 hz  and 3 dB treble boost around 1 khz to compensate for flat wound strings.

Leave the mids alone or use a small boost around 500hz.

Do not cut the mids.

This solution is essentially a flat eq. It will sound very week in the bass and bright on its own but in my situation it cuts through the band mix.

Edited 9 hours ago by spyder

[SimonK]

I tend to forget that my Bass itself has pretty good EQ options that can be adjusted on the fly. If not cutting through I would just fiddle with the onboard EQ while playing with the band to find something that works. Once you know what that is just dial it back should you ever be playing bass on your own!

[mep]

A bit of boost for the low mids, which works great for me. Keep the low frequencies in check though. Make sure you go out front during the sound check and are happy with your sound.

[Pinball]

Some thoughts

You can only adjust what is there in the first place in terms of power and tone. 

A passive or active bass makes no difference, provided the tone and punch is there, a good preamp peddle should do the trick.

Abandon you attachment to the sound of yourself in isolation and focus on what it sounds like in the mix. e.g. I love the sound of a Stingray in the mix but don't like the tone when solo'd.

GL

[Davy]

Thanks guys, I'll give those suggestions a try tonight.

Particularly in relation to Pinball's comment above, I do realise that I need to put the sound of the band before my own personal tastes. I'll just leave it for the guitarists to be the selfish ones...🤣

[Phil Starr]

Ironically bass here is your enemy. almost anything below 80Hz (the 2nd harmonic of bottom E) should be left for the drums and even up to 160Hz you are in an area where you will be fighting with the drums to be heard. I use a 35Hz 24db/octave filter to remove all subsonics and shelve the bass response through the PA below 160Hz or thereabouts. Please don't take these frequencies as gospel for your eq though you still need to get 'your' tone but remember you are trying to get the balance right between bass and mid/treble. Turning the bass down and maybe edging the volume up is as valid a way of making the mids shine through as boosting mids. It's not a bad principle to start with everything set flat and then cut bass. The idea of using a decent pre amp isn't a bad one either, using a SansAmp transformed my sound with almost no effort from me.

 

One thing you should also be aware of is the equal loudness contours which I'll put in below. It's the opposite of the loudness curve you are deliberately putting in when you use your mid scoop. We are hyper sensitive to mids at low volumes but almost totally insensitive to bass frequencies until they get loud. We aren't great with low level high frequencies either. Turning up you volume control boosts the bass and treble contrasted to the mids which is why a mid scoop sounds good at home but not at gig levels. Going from 80db average levels at home to 100db in the PA might mean you need to cut 5db from the bass to get the same subjective sound. You can read that off on the graph but the message generally is don't be scared to cut bass knowing that you genuinely sound bassier simply by being louder. 

 

One thing that worries me is that you say you have no back line (which is brilliant) and you describe your PA but don't mention monitors. You are using monitors aren't you? You simply won't hear the mid/tops from your PA just a wooly bass sound. You absolutely need some sort of monitoring 

 

Anyway loudness curves

 

 

 

[Davy]

@Phil StarrWe use in ear monitors which sound sooo different to the main PA sound, i.e. very toppy and they pick up every string click which can be a bit off-putting. However I'm more concerned with the front of house sound as I'm often told that the audience can't hear the bass very well so I will try your suggestions at the gig tonight.

[Phil Starr]

Good Luck

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Davy said:

@Phil StarrWe use in ear monitors which sound sooo different to the main PA sound

They shouldn't. The room affects the PA of course, but standing close enough to the PA to take the room out of the equation your in-ears should sound very close to the same.

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Ironically bass here is your enemy. almost anything below 80Hz (the 2nd harmonic of bottom E) should be left for the drums and even up to 160Hz you are in an area where you will be fighting with the drums to be heard. I use a 35Hz 24db/octave filter to remove all subsonics and shelve the bass response through the PA below 160Hz or thereabouts. Please don't take these frequencies as gospel for your eq though you still need to get 'your' tone but remember you are trying to get the balance right between bass and mid/treble. Turning the bass down and maybe edging the volume up is as valid a way of making the mids shine through as boosting mids. It's not a bad principle to start with everything set flat and then cut bass. The idea of using a decent pre amp isn't a bad one either, using a SansAmp transformed my sound with almost no effort from me.

 

One thing you should also be aware of is the equal loudness contours which I'll put in below. It's the opposite of the loudness curve you are deliberately putting in when you use your mid scoop. We are hyper sensitive to mids at low volumes but almost totally insensitive to bass frequencies until they get loud. We aren't great with low level high frequencies either. Turning up you volume control boosts the bass and treble contrasted to the mids which is why a mid scoop sounds good at home but not at gig levels. Going from 80db average levels at home to 100db in the PA might mean you need to cut 5db from the bass to get the same subjective sound. You can read that off on the graph but the message generally is don't be scared to cut bass knowing that you genuinely sound bassier simply by being louder. 

 

One thing that worries me is that you say you have no back line (which is brilliant) and you describe your PA but don't mention monitors. You are using monitors aren't you? You simply won't hear the mid/tops from your PA just a wooly bass sound. You absolutely need some sort of monitoring 

 

Anyway loudness curves

 

 

 

 

I normally would agree with most of what Phil says! But the "weight" of the bass IMO comes particularly from the 120Hz to 150Hz region so I would, if anything, boost that by +3db or so.

 

I think if you are agressively cutting bass below 160Hz that feels too high a cut off, and you'll risk ending up with quite a thin sound.

 

I'd personally recommend cutting from 80Hz to 100Hz to get rid of low end crud, and leave your mids flat rather than cutting them; and as you've already shared mid scoop can sound sweet solo'd but it's where you're losing yourself in the mix.