The future of amps & cabs - stage props only?

[Lozz196]

Yeah I don’t know why we - and our fellow bandmates - allow it to happen. 

[SimonK]

3 hours ago, YellowLedBetterBass said:

I have been asked by the soundman at our next gig to not take a bass amp and the basses for all three bands are going to be DI'ed in with either his Sansamp or our own DI boxes.

 

Not sure what is contentious about this - I can't remember the last time I didn't DI for a gig... although I'm guessing if the DI is built into the amp it's just a case of accepting the amp will be there and asking for the stage volume to be low as well?

[PinkMohawk]

21 minutes ago, SimonK said:

 

Not sure what is contentious about this - I can't remember the last time I didn't DI for a gig... although I'm guessing if the DI is built into the amp it's just a case of accepting the amp will be there and asking for the stage volume to be low as well?

Mainly, it's that we disagree that sound engineers should be dictating what's on stage and in use. When I was touring, I rolled with 2 8x10's and that was that, I was happy to work with engineers but they didn't get to dictate terms to me. As an engineer now, I don't tell bands what they can and can't use on stage, I'm there to figure it out and make it work. Will I ask them to turn down? Sometimes, if I have to, but in a small venue, I'm just as likely to let them turn it up and just not have them in the PA. 

[SimonK]

48 minutes ago, PinkMohawk said:

 When I was touring, I rolled with 2 8x10's and that was that, 

 

My hero 💖 !

[Lozz196]

For me it’s the insistence of the use of equipment/a set up that the bands may not use. It’s their performance, they should be as comfortable as possible so as to put on their best show.
 

Now controlled stage volume, well I get that, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to DI from an amp set very low on volume and then have monitor feed. Given it would be there as a DI it wouldn’t even need to be pointing in the direction of stage mics.

[Wolverinebass]

16 hours ago, YellowLedBetterBass said:

I have been asked by the soundman at our next gig to not take a bass amp and the basses for all three bands are going to be DI'ed in with either his Sansamp or our own DI boxes.

This is why I hate live sound guys. That would be a provocation I wouldn't be taking at all.

 

I mean, what is it with them? What part of it do they not realise that people want different things? Obviously, I'm not playing an Alembic because I want to sound like a reggae bass player you melt. Oh, you're just cutting off everything above 800Hz when I specifically told you not to? Thanks for that.

 

In more than 20 years of playing in London I've only had maybe 10 decent live engineers. All the rest have been megabells who have ruined my sound by tearing out all the top end and mids.

 

The pinnacle of this idiocy was playing my 12 string Hamer through a Tech 21 Dug pedal which as some of you might know has a balanced xlr output with a cab sim. I was told "pre eq DI only." I refused point blank to do that explaining why. The bloke refused to take the feed from the pedal and took the DI output of the amp I had plugged into. He then tore all the top end off in the PA. I had to be restrained by my bandmates after that gig.

[lemmywinks]

Bad sound engineers are a different issue though, if I was doing circuit gigs using house PA/engineers and didn't know what the setup would be I would take my own preamp and just give them a feed from there. Having an optional Sansamp provided if any bands on the bill didn't have their own pre should be seen as a good gesture by the sound guy, not them trying to exert control.

 

If they're one of those goons that removes everything except rumble from the bass signal then address that. Most of my experiences with house engineers has been good, we only do a few gigs like that every year though and they're usually in dedicated music venues away from cities.

[snorkie635]

54 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

This is why I hate live sound guys. That would be a provocation I wouldn't be taking at all.

 

I mean, what is it with them? What part of it do they not realise that people want different things? Obviously, I'm not playing an Alembic because I want to sound like a reggae bass player you melt. Oh, you're just cutting off everything above 800Hz when I specifically told you not to? Thanks for that.

 

In more than 20 years of playing in London I've only had maybe 10 decent live engineers. All the rest have been megabells who have ruined my sound by tearing out all the top end and mids.

 

The pinnacle of this idiocy was playing my 12 string Hamer through a Tech 21 Dug pedal which as some of you might know has a balanced xlr output with a cab sim. I was told "pre eq DI only." I refused point blank to do that explaining why. The bloke refused to take the feed from the pedal and took the DI output of the amp I had plugged into. He then tore all the top end off in the PA. I had to be restrained by my bandmates after that gig.

Fairly well-known that John Entwistle suffered for decades at the hands (and ears?) of live 'soundmen', producers and engineers. Many ripped the top and middle out of what he was trying to do back in the day. Fully get your response @Wolverinebass.

[Lozz196]

I find the irony of this situation is that I’m arguing against a sound man telling bassists to do this yet it’s actually now my preferred way of gigging. 

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I find the irony of this situation is that I’m arguing against a sound man telling bassists to do this yet it’s actually now my preferred way of gigging. 

 

I don't see an irony, if they are doing what you want thats fine, it is your choice. 

[Ed_S]

Reminds me of a gig I did aaaages ago where the sound guy was quite aggressively insistent that I plug my bass straight into his very ordinary £50-ish DI box, and then take the link-out from that to my pedalboard and amp. Main problem being that I had a Drop pedal on my board at the time, which would have meant that had I agreed, half the set would have been in the wrong tuning through the PA. The concept didn't seem to bother him at all. When I'd finally made him understand that I wasn't going to use his DI (I'm still not sure he grasped why...) he still wouldn't take the feed from the Sansamp on my board, and instead angrily set up an SM57 on the cab.

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, snorkie635 said:

Fairly well-known that John Entwistle suffered for decades at the hands (and ears?) of live 'soundmen', producers and engineers. Many ripped the top and middle out of what he was trying to do back in the day. Fully get your response @Wolverinebass.

My experience is exactly that of Entwistle's. Ironic that it took place 30-50 years later and nothing has changed. 

 

One of the last gigs I did we had it recorded from the desk. When I got the stems I could see what the guy had done. Everything over 1.8kHz had been cut. Loads of 800Hz to 1kHz had gone too. How did I know? I used the exact same setup with the same settings when I recorded myself for my band. They're midi patch settings and don't change.

 

It's a constant thing. One day, it might change, but I doubt it.

[Lozz196]

Yeah a sound man did similar to my sound, I gave him JJ Burnel and he changed it to J Jamerson. I didn’t have the heart to be angry with him as he genuinely thought he’d worked hard to do me a big favour.

[fretmeister]

The best soundguy I ever had was for a village fete / beer festival type thing.

 

The stage was used for a variety of acts during the day. There was a kit share with a bring-your-own-snare option and they did prefer that every body used the same bass rig. It was an actually very nice sounding Laney combo and extension cab. FOH took the di out of the amp.

 

I used my little board (preamp / octave / tuner / little bit of dirt for richness). I plugged into the Laney and it was horribly bright - not great for big band jazz, but nice and rocky for the guys on before us.

 

The sound guy just said - change whatever you want, every setting, I'll make sure it sounds good out front. 

 

So in the quick soundcheck I did change everything on the amp and also experimented with going into the FX return instead. I had a wireless on my board so I played a bit from out front as well during the SC. FOH insisted that I used the octave a bit in the SC just to make sure there wasn't a sudden explosion of low end.

 

The guy did a great job. Sounded just how I wanted it out front. Thick and chewy with no flub and no excessive treble. Still left enough room for the trombones and the bari saxes.

 

In 30 years of gigging I've never had anyone that good. I do wonder if he was also a bassist.

 

Some of the band thought the bass was too loud - but you know, f*** 'em.  

[Jack]

I know we've drifted a little off topic but it seems as though the soundguy in @YellowLedBetterBass's post is actually up for pretty much any other preamp? They have even offered a house Sansamp if a bassist doesn't have one of their own. Being told "any preamp you like, or I've got one here if you want" is probably more than most us get at most gigs? Can't say I understand the hatred. 

 

Although some of you are relating some other horror stories. I guess I do understand the general hatred!

[Muzz]

12 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yeah a sound man did similar to my sound, I gave him JJ Burnel and he changed it to J Jamerson. I didn’t have the heart to be angry with him as he genuinely thought he’d worked hard to do me a big favour.

Tragically, the last time I went to see the Stranglers (admittedly a couple of years ago, the first tour with inears, so they may have got it sorted now) at the Manchester Apollo, the soundman did exactly that to JJ Burnel...

[Muzz]

I've used backline a couple of times of late (not my idea), and both times it's reminded me of how hard it can be to get a decent stage sound without over- or under-whelming the room with bass; I've been spoiled by a mixable feed to my inears, where I can hear exactly what's going on at a reasonable volume, something that's often elusive with backline.

 

Oh, and the ability to turn the guitarist down cannot be overstated...

Edited 6 hours ago by Muzz

[lemmywinks]

There's also the reverse of the idiot sound guy situation - the band idiot(s). 

 

I went to watch a mate's band a few years ago and the venue had hired external PA with an engineer, pleasant guy who seemed to know what he was doing and had old but decent kit. I lost count of the amount of times he requested the guitars to be slightly less deafening so he could get a proper mix where everybody could be heard, eventually just shrugged his shoulders, gave up and did his best. All you could hear was drums and guitar.

 

Getting a controllable FoH mix is instantly torpedoed when someone decides they absolutely have to have their sound at the volume they choose at the expense of everything else, add in another band member with the same outlook and you can see why handing someone an XLR can be an appealing solution to multiple potential headaches. 

[Jack]

48 minutes ago, Muzz said:

Tragically, the last time I went to see the Stranglers (admittedly a couple of years ago, the first tour with inears, so they may have got it sorted now) at the Manchester Apollo, the soundman did exactly that to JJ Burnel...

Oh, the sound for the tour on IEMs sucked?

 

17 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

There's also the reverse of the idiot sound guy situation - the band idiot(s). 

 

I went to watch a mate's band a few years ago and the venue had hired external PA with an engineer, pleasant guy who seemed to know what he was doing and had old but decent kit. I lost count of the amount of times he requested the guitars to be slightly less deafening so he could get a proper mix where everybody could be heard, eventually just shrugged his shoulders, gave up and did his best. All you could hear was drums and guitar.

 

Getting a controllable FoH mix is instantly torpedoed when someone decides they absolutely have to have their sound at the volume they choose at the expense of everything else, add in another band member with the same outlook and you can see why handing someone an XLR can be an appealing solution to multiple potential headaches. 

Oh, the sound for the loud stage volume band sucked?

 

 

Goes to show that the methodology isn't the problem.   

[Muzz]

The problem/common factor is the SE didn't do (or get to do) his job properly. In the case of the Stranglers, everything else was good, but the bass had been reduced to the new Subsonic Mud Rumble which seems, along with the Deafening Cannon Kick, to be the latest in sound trends for SEs mixing rock bands.

[lemmywinks]

7 minutes ago, Jack said:

Goes to show that the methodology isn't the problem.   

 

 

Yeah as I said previously, a poorly mixed FoH is a completely separate problem. In addition to that having amps on stage might contribute to other issues like bleeding into mics etc, especially on smaller stages. That used to be an issue for me until I started using tilt back bass cabs, then a wedge monitor and finally IEMs.

[SimonK]

I do wonder whether the request by the sound guy that kicked off this side-track may have been more a practical one in the sense that perhaps there wasn't room on the stage for three bass players to bring their amps, so it was just a plea to bring your own preamp/DI or he was offering to provide a Sansamp (which is a damn site better than some of teh £20 Behringer DIs that I often get offered)! 

[Lozz196]

That`s a good point Simon, with my old band who I`m temping for at the moment we always organise gear-share so each band bring one bit of kit, as you say without it you can end up with a mountain of gear and with nowhere to store it. 

 

For me though, and as I say I like gigging with just a Sansamp or equivalent, I just keep coming back to the the thought that some bands may not be used to this, and their performance may suffer due to it. 

[BigRedX]

For multi-band gigs the amount of backline on-stage can sometimes be over-excessive. Therefore the band with no backline can be at an advantage. Not only does my band plus all our gear, merch and roadie/merch seller fit comfortably into a single estate car, but we also fit comfortably on smaller stages where the headlining band have already used most of the space with their drum kit and amps.

 

I've yet to come across the SE who insists on trying to make my bass indistinguishable mush. However my current bug-bear is with the SE who IMO wastes time trying to get the perfect gain structure on every channel on the PA for 3-4 entirely different bands. We're not trying to remake "Frampton Comes Alive" or even "The Who Live At Leeds" and need the highest signal to noise ratio possible. It's a gig in a small club with probably 200 people in the audience maximum. So long as nothing is overloading the channel input, it will be fine, and if it is they can always adjust the gain setting during the set and turn up the channel fader to compensate, It will all be over in less than 40 minutes and no-one on stage or FoH is going to be bothered with a tiny amount of extra hiss (if there even is any with todays modern digital desks and D-class PA amps) because the input gain was set a bit too low on a couple of channels.

 

Edit: And it appears that a lot of these SEs are listening with their eyes on the mixer meters and displays rather than with their ears. Earlier this year I played a gig where the drum monitor started to fart out on certain bass notes mid-way through my band's set. It was obvious on stage and also apparently obvious in the audience too based on comments we got afterwards, but nothing was done about it while we played. Personally I don't like to mention things like this during the set as IMO it makes the band look diva-ish and unprofessional. We don't have a drummer, it was just a slight annoyance rather than a major problem, plus this particular gig was being very tightly run from a timing PoV and any additional mucking about by the SE would have eaten into our set time, so we just carried on. Any SE paying proper attention to the SOUND would have heard this and attempted to rectify it as we played. Obviously since it didn't show up as an overload on the mixer they didn't know what to do about it.

Edited 4 hours ago by BigRedX

[Stub Mandrel]

I saw Alice Copper supported by Bobbie Dazzle on Tuesday at Cardiff Indoor/Motorpoint/Utility Company Arena.

 

The sound for the support was awful for the first part of the set.  Dominated by drums especially the snare, vocals weak, bass inaudible. 

 

My ear for a mix must be getting better as by some miracle the snare was tamed and everything else balanced to get a decent (tough not exceptional) mix by the end. I imagine their sound engineer is still getting used to huge venues.

 

Sound for Alice was exemplary, as you would hope.