Multi FX - What's good these days?

[GarethFlatlands]

I'm considering a multi fx (with an amp sim), but it's been a while since I looked. There seem to be more than I remember and I get option paralysis easily. The Helix Stomp jumped out at me as you can hook it up to your PC for some deep dive editing, and being able to isolate different frequencies and apply effects to them seemed like it would be very useful, but from what I've read the DSP isn't the best and there are presumably better options out there. The Hotone Ampero 2 looks good but seems to have had a slightly rough launch. I have a budget of around £500. Mainly for home practice but I may want to gig again some day, so a headphone jack and an XLR out are essential. I don't use a ton of effects so really just need excellent compressors and amp sims, and everything else would be a bonus.

 

Instead of reading about them all for months and not buying one, what are you using and would you recommend it? Are you a millionaire who's tried them all and has opinions? Did you buy one and loved it so hard it cured your GAS forever?

[Skybone]

Another question would be how many effects do you need per song?

 

Do you want amp/cab modelling or just effects?

 

There are plenty of options out there these days, and they're all pretty decent, but it depends on what you need.

 

If you're happy with your amp sounds, and just want effects, then the HX FX would be a good place to start, as it is just effects.

 

If you're after amp/cab modelling as well, but only use 2-3 effects, then the POD Go is well worth looking at (use one myself, and think it's great).

 

If you need multiple signal paths and a load of effects as well as amp/cab modelling, then HX Stomp / Stomp XL etc. would do the job.

 

Don't know anything about the Boss GT1000/Core/GT1/etc. or the Zoom B3n/B6, or the Hotone pedals.

 

There's a Helix LT in the Effects For Sale section for £550 IIRC, which would be well worth considering.

[TheGreek]

Zoom B1 and the subsequent models do the job and come up for stupid money - I've seen them for £30 - and you get a tuner and drum machine.

[Acebassmusic]

I've been using TC Electronics GMajor for a number of years which has worked great for me. It only provides effects and not cab sims which is all I need. It's a rack mount unit which I switch patches using a MidiMoose pedal.

 

Unfortunately they are now discontinued. I started having a look around to find a similar but updated rack unit but cant seem to find anything that isn't overkill or overpriced for what I need. Anyone got any ideas or advice? 🤔

[velvetkevorkian]

I'd be looking in the classifieds for one that suits your budget and form factor -- I like my HX stomp which come up fairly frequently at ~£350 and should hold that for a while yet.

 

15 hours ago, Acebassmusic said:

I've been using TC Electronics GMajor for a number of years which has worked great for me. It only provides effects and not cab sims which is all I need. It's a rack mount unit which I switch patches using a MidiMoose pedal.

 

Unfortunately they are now discontinued. I started having a look around to find a similar but updated rack unit but cant seem to find anything that isn't overkill or overpriced for what I need. Anyone got any ideas or advice? 🤔

 

Rackmount multi effects puts you straight into the top end these days, unfortunately -- I can't think of any guitar/bass oriented units without getting into Axe-FX/Helix Rack territory. I can't imagine a cheaper unit (e.g. Behringer FX2000) will be a worthwhile improvement over your G-Major.

[SamIAm]

No millionaire, I've tried various Zooms, HX FX and HX Stomp but have landed on the MOD Dwarf. Sub £500 and insanely powerful. They recently incorporated neural modelling capabilities.

A good overview of how it works starts at 3:00.

S'manth x

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Smanth

[Acebassmusic]

10 minutes ago, velvetkevorkian said:

Rackmount multi effects puts you straight into the top end these days, unfortunately -- I can't think of any guitar/bass oriented units without getting into Axe-FX/Helix Rack territory. I can't imagine a cheaper unit (e.g. Behringer FX2000) will be a worthwhile improvement over your G-Major.

 

Yeah, there seems to be a gap in the market for a GMajor replacement. Plenty of floor based units to choose from. I'm not in a rush to change and somehow have managed to attain three units so hopefully plenty of time before I need to. 😁

[SumOne]

My favorite lately is the Boss GT 1000 Core:

• Positive: Sounds good, compact, well built/reliable, gapless preset switching (with trails beween presets), lots of effects blocks per preset (26), 3x parallel paths (which seems overkill but can do things like dynamic split paths for compressors), low power use, 2x fx loops, 2x outputs.
• Negative: It is quite expensive, the interface isn't as good as other multi-fx.

 

I don't think there is another multi-fx as powerful and compact (perhaps the Mod Dwarf?),  it's a blessing and a curse with lots of stuff potentially going on that can only be found and adjusted via menu diving. The interface isn't very user-friendly and it has potential for very complex signal chains but only 3x footswitches and a small screen so it is best used as a preset device - that takes a different mindset to having a pedalboard full of individual pedals you adjust on the go.  I know exactly what tunes I'll be playing in a set though so using presets is fine with me. 

 

Alternatively, things like the TC Plethora or Line 6 Effects are more like the traditional pedalboard 'stomp this footswitch for this effect' approach which I'd prefer if I was in a band that does more spontanious stuff with effects.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by SumOne

[SumOne]

You mention that an XLR essential, that does limit things quite a bit. It rules out the Boss GX 100 and GT 1000 Core, Mod Dwarf, Helix Stomp and Pod Go and Effects, Ampero, TC Electronic Plethora, Headrush, Valeton GP 200 LT, Zoom B1 four & MS-60B, Tonex. In fact, the only <£500 ones I can think of that have it are the Valeton GP 200 and the Zoom B2-Four and B6, Mooer GE 250 & 300, Harley Benton. 

 

I would question why an XLR is essential as personally I don't think they are, and it seems companies like Boss and Line 6 and TC Electronic are in agreement with me whereas cheaper brands like Zoom, Valeton, Harley Benton do have them....read into that what you will! 

 

If it really is needed they can be bought for as little as £13.  https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-Passive-DI-Box/1SDA

Edited May 9, 2023 by SumOne

[GarethFlatlands]

Thanks for the advice so far. Seems like a I might have been overthinking things (again) and the HX Stomp is a good choice. I'll check out the MOD and Boss units too. 

 

I briefly owned a Zoom B3 but didn't really like the quality of the effects enough to keep it for long.

 

And maybe calling XLR out "essential" was overstating things, although I'm surprised more units don't seem to have it.

[SamIAm]

47 minutes ago, GarethFlatlands said:

Thanks for the advice so far. Seems like a I might have been overthinking things (again) and the HX Stomp is a good choice. I'll check out the MOD and Boss units too. 

 

I briefly owned a Zoom B3 but didn't really like the quality of the effects enough to keep it for long.

 

And maybe calling XLR out "essential" was overstating things, although I'm surprised more units don't seem to have it.

I would also consider a MIDI pedalboard as the Stomp/Boss/Dwarf all have just three footswitches on them.

S'manth x

[MrDinsdale]

12 hours ago, GarethFlatlands said:

Thanks for the advice so far. Seems like a I might have been overthinking things (again) and the HX Stomp is a good choice. I'll check out the MOD and Boss units too. 

 

I briefly owned a Zoom B3 but didn't really like the quality of the effects enough to keep it for long.

 

And maybe calling XLR out "essential" was overstating things, although I'm surprised more units don't seem to have it.

The GT1000core for example is so tightly packed with I/O already that an XLR out would likely mean sacrificing and FX loop or other connection options.
 

I imagine for most the XLR is a little redundant. If you have a half decent dedicated DI box it's probably better than the built in ones.

 

TBH I've never played a gig where FOH haven't used their own beat up DI box instead of the one on my board so tbh my fancy DI is largely meaningless anyway outside of home use 😂

[SumOne]

7 hours ago, MrDinsdale said:

The GT1000core for example is so tightly packed with I/O already that an XLR out would likely mean sacrificing and FX loop or other connection options.
 

I imagine for most the XLR is a little redundant. If you have a half decent dedicated DI box it's probably better than the built in ones.

 

TBH I've never played a gig where FOH haven't used their own beat up DI box instead of the one on my board so tbh my fancy DI is largely meaningless anyway outside of home use 😂

 

I might be wrong, but I get the impression having DI XLR on pedals is a feature that isn't actually needed in real life very often, at least it hasn't been for me.

 

• Music venue, Festival, Studio: They have their own DI, mixer etc. 
• Home use: Unncessary unless you somehow have a massive home studio with long cable runs.
  • And worth considering that "when the cord length is under 10 feet, unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. This is because at this length, any distortion is unlikely, and the simplicity of unbalanced cables can work wonders when there’s no detriment coming from potential distortion. For instance, mastering studios typically use unbalanced cables ranging between three and ten feet in length." https://www.epiphan.com/blog/audio-cables-balanced-vs-unbalanced/ )
• Gigging band: Most players use Amps/Cabs that you wouldn't have any benefit sending a balanced signal to, if also going to a mixer/PA then the most Amps have pre/post DI with XLR .
• If going to a mixing desk with a low impedence signal (mic level) then balanced cable is pretty much essential as a lot of gain is applied in the pre-amp which highlights unwanted interferance noise, but for a Bass guitar, modern mixers can take instrument (or line) level inputs so it isn't such an issue. 

 

The only situation where I think I could need it is if I was in a band that used its own mixing desk/PA that is over 6m away and I didn't have my Amp to use for its DI XLR (Edit, on second thoughts - it could also be useful if wanting to send a balanced signal with Amp/Cab sim direct from the pedal to the mixer/PA >6m away, and different clean signal to the real Amp/Cab) but that's only needed if there are long cable runs and noticable interferance. Even then, the Stomp has balanced cables (just they don't have XLR connectors), and the Core is buffered so noticable interferance is less likely.

 

I dunno, it just hasn't ever seemed like an issue to me, perhaps it is for others though. I can see it would be needed if playing stadiums with a mixing desk a long way away, I'm not at that level quite yet though! If it turned into an issue fo me then I'd buy a cheap passive DI.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by SumOne

[BigRedX]

I use the XLR outs on my Helix Floor to send a balanced line output to my FRFR cab when I am using it. I always connect to the PA via a separate DI box, either one I have or one at the venue. Saves inadvertently getting phantom power pushed at my device - I know modern devices should be fine with unneeded phantom power, but IME it's better to be safe than sorry.

[GarethFlatlands]

The one gig I tried IEMs was using an XLR from my pedalboard (Behringer BDI-21) into a belt pack, while the FOH guy ran a jack from the 1/4" output into his own DI. I did it for the first time live as we I had to transport the PA, sound guy and singer in my Fabia and had no room for cabs. It actually worked great and meant I had to bring less gear, maybe I had in the back of my mind I could do that again but ditch the Berhinger and not replace it with a different, more transparent DI if I ever went back to gigging. For now, it's mainly so I can practice bass silently at home without having to fire up my PC and a VST.

[PatrickJ]

On 09/05/2023 at 19:01, GarethFlatlands said:

Thanks for the advice so far. Seems like a I might have been overthinking things (again) and the HX Stomp is a good choice. I'll check out the MOD and Boss units too. 

 

A HX stomp is working really well for me at the moment.  I can't get on with creating / editing patches directly on the unit but hooking it up via USB to my Mac makes it very easy, despite the HX edit software feeling rather dated.

 

I really like the versatility of the unit, I've gigged with it a couple of times this year using it as a pre-amp/compressor/EQ along with a couple of FX patches but it's also what I've been using for all my home practice with a set of IEMs plugged into the headphone socket.   I wish the filter and synth effects were better but other than that most of the effects sound pretty good and there's a decent selection of bass amps and cabs available.

[SumOne]

 

In my lawsuit arguing that multi-fx don't generally need  XLR:

 

On 10/05/2023 at 15:21, BigRedX said:

I use the XLR outs on my Helix Floor to send a balanced line output to my FRFR cab when I am using it. I always connect to the PA via a separate DI box, either one I have or one at the venue. Saves inadvertently getting phantom power pushed at my device - I know modern devices should be fine with unneeded phantom power, but IME it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

• I put it to the jury that:
  • a) It's fine, and possibly preferable for buffered instrument or line level signals to go through unbalanced cables up to about 25 foot, and not much of an issue beyond that unless really long distances (unlike mic level signals that do definitely need balanced even at short distances) . DI  XLR for distances from instrument/line level pedal to Cab is probably not necessary or preferable: 
    • I call forward expert witness #1  
      • "when the cord length is under 10 feet, unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. This is because at this length, any distortion is unlikely, and the simplicity of unbalanced cables can work wonders when there’s no detriment coming from potential distortion. For instance, mastering studios typically use unbalanced cables ranging between three and ten feet in length.".........."If you’re using a longer unbalanced cable on a loud device like a guitar, there won’t be a difference at all (vs balanced)"
      • Witness #2  " most people have the impression that a balanced connection is superior because it is more resistant to external signal noise sources. While this is true, it does not necessarily mean that the balanced line is "better" than a single-ended cable"......"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. Great for low-level/gain signals like instruments"....(unbalanced is)  effective at cable lengths up to 20-25 feet"
    • b) Using XLR has a potential risk from phantom power 
      • Expert witness #3 'Wikipedia' "Phantom powering can cause equipment malfunction or even damage"
      • Expert witness #4. Line 6 LT/Floor Manual  "IMPORTANT! Never connect the Helix device's XLR outputs to a device whose XLR inputs have 48V phantom power enabled!

 

On 10/05/2023 at 18:57, GarethFlatlands said:

The one gig I tried IEMs was using an XLR from my pedalboard (Behringer BDI-21) into a belt pack, while the FOH guy ran a jack from the 1/4" output into his own DI. I did it for the first time live as we I had to transport the PA, sound guy and singer in my Fabia and had no room for cabs. It actually worked great and meant I had to bring less gear, maybe I had in the back of my mind I could do that again but ditch the Berhinger and not replace it with a different, more transparent DI if I ever went back to gigging. For now, it's mainly so I can practice bass silently at home without having to fire up my PC and a VST.

 

• • c) There is no harm in using the DI XLR for pedalboard to belt pack for IEMs or home use but it isn't necessary or preferable for those short distances, a higher volume output (instrument or line level) via un-balanced would potentially be better. 
  • d) Expert witness #5 "The  FOH guy" prefers to use their own DI box, this is usually the case.  

 

My concluding remarks to persuade the Basschat jury to rule in favour of not really needing an XLR on a multi-FX pedal:

1. Cable distances aren't usually large enough to matter for multi fx buffered instrument or line level signals. 
2. Modern mixers can take instrument or line level inputs where interferance isn't usually an issue (unlike mic level). 
3. If there are long cable runs to mixers where a balanced signal would be beneficial you are probably playing at a festival or music venue - they will want to use their own DI to their mixing desk. 
4. If you still need your own DI then most Amps have them.
5. In a situaltion where none of those things above apply (and how often is that the case?) then a seperate DI box is better than it being built into a multi fx unit because it can protect against damaging phantom power.
6. Having a seperate DI box isn't an issue as they can be bought for as little as £11, they are small and tough, and passive ones don't even need to be plugged into power.

 

......Case closed! 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by SumOne

[GarethFlatlands]

There are a couple of £300 HX Stomps on Facebook marketplace from accounts created this year, which seems suspicious. The others are all £420+. As there's a GT1000 Core in my local music shop for £450, I think I'm going to go buy it if it's still there on Tuesday.

[SamIAm]

HX Stomp here on BC for £320 ... I'm sure it won't last long!

S'manth x

[BigRedX]

@SumOne These days almost all the connections for my equipment are made using XLRs and the fewer different types of cable I need to take to a gig the better. The only jack leads I use are the one for connecting my bass to the Helix and a short one for to connect the Helix to the DI box (and a spare for each). Everything else is connected with 6 XLR leads for which I carry just a couple of spares and besides the PA always has a few extra XLR leads should there be real problems. If I could I'd make all my connections using XLR leads and bin the jack leads altogether.

[rmorris]

On 11/05/2023 at 12:40, SumOne said:

 

 

• I call forward expert witness #1  
  • "when the cord length is under 10 feet, unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables.
  • This is because at this length, any distortion is unlikely, and the simplicity of unbalanced cables can work wonders when there’s no detriment coming from potential distortion. For instance, mastering studios typically use unbalanced cables ranging between three and ten feet in length.".........."If you’re using a longer unbalanced cable on a loud device like a guitar, there won’t be a difference at all (vs balanced)"
  • Witness #2  " most people have the impression that a balanced connection is superior because it is more resistant to external signal noise sources. While this is true, it does not necessarily mean that the balanced line is "better" than a single-ended cable"......"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. Great for low-level/gain signals like instruments"....(unbalanced is)  effective at cable lengths up to 20-25 feet"
• b) Using XLR has a potential risk from phantom power 
  • Expert witness #3 'Wikipedia' "Phantom powering can cause equipment malfunction or even damage"
  • Expert witness #4. Line 6 LT/Floor Manual  "IMPORTANT! Never connect the Helix device's XLR outputs to a device whose XLR inputs have 48V phantom power enabled!

 

 

• • c) There is no harm in using the DI XLR for pedalboard to belt pack for IEMs or home use but it isn't necessary or preferable for those short distances, a higher volume output (instrument or line level) via un-balanced would potentially be better. 
  • d) Expert witness #5 "The  FOH guy" prefers to use their own DI box, this is usually the case. 

 

 

Some nonsense here tbh.

 

"when the cord length is under 10 feet, unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables."

 

What does that even mean ? What does "stronger" mean here ? level ? lower impedance (So lower susceptibility to interference)

 

• This is because at this length, any distortion is unlikely, and the simplicity of unbalanced cables can work wonders when there’s no detriment coming from potential distortion. For instance, mastering studios typically use unbalanced cables ranging between three and ten feet in length.".........."If you’re using a longer unbalanced cable on a loud device like a guitar, there won’t be a difference at all (vs balanced)"
• Witness #2  " most people have the impression that a balanced connection is superior because it is more resistant to external signal noise sources. While this is true, it does not necessarily mean that the balanced line is "better" than a single-ended cable"......"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. Great for low-level/gain signals like instruments"....(unbalanced is)  effective at cable lengths up to 20-25 feet"

By "distortion" I guess really talking about interference ? The mastering studio point is a mixed bag. I know some do but others do not. And if they do they have a very careful and thought out "Ground" scheme applied to a relatively simple audio setup.. Unlike what you get at any live gig type event.

Level does not depend on cable type. 

 

"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables."

 

Errr...no in any sense 🙄

[SumOne]

3 hours ago, rmorris said:

 

Some nonsense here tbh.

 

"when the cord length is under 10 feet, unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables."

 

What does that even mean ? What does "stronger" mean here ? level ? lower impedance (So lower susceptibility to interference)

 

• This is because at this length, any distortion is unlikely, and the simplicity of unbalanced cables can work wonders when there’s no detriment coming from potential distortion. For instance, mastering studios typically use unbalanced cables ranging between three and ten feet in length.".........."If you’re using a longer unbalanced cable on a loud device like a guitar, there won’t be a difference at all (vs balanced)"
• Witness #2  " most people have the impression that a balanced connection is superior because it is more resistant to external signal noise sources. While this is true, it does not necessarily mean that the balanced line is "better" than a single-ended cable"......"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables. Great for low-level/gain signals like instruments"....(unbalanced is)  effective at cable lengths up to 20-25 feet"

By "distortion" I guess really talking about interference ? The mastering studio point is a mixed bag. I know some do but others do not. And if they do they have a very careful and thought out "Ground" scheme applied to a relatively simple audio setup.. Unlike what you get at any live gig type event.

Level does not depend on cable type. 

 

"Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables."

 

Errr...no in any sense 🙄

 

Well, I'm no expert on it which is why I called up my expert witnesses! Perhaps they aren't reliable witnesses but Witness #1 is from the Epiphan website - a professional AV company, and Witness #2 from Moon Audio - a professional AV company (that sells cables). 

 

As far as I understand though: Balanced vs un-balanced and low impedence vs high impedence are different things but generally speaking a DI with XLR balanced signal changes the impedence to mic level (low impedance, or 'weaker'),  un-balanced signals from things like guitar pedals tend to be instrument level ('stronger') and are often buffered to preserve that over long cables. Mics have to have balanced signals as the low impedence 'weak' signal they provide to the mixing desk then go through a lot of pre-amp gain at the mixing desk - so any interferance they have picked up by the cable is also amplified a lot and is noticable. But that is not usually so necessary for 'stronger' instrument or line level signals - they are potentially better off being a instrument level signal and un-balanced rather than mic level and balanced, hence guitar to pedals and pedal to pedal and pedal to amp connections using un-balanced instrument level signals and adding a buffer to preserve it over long distances if needed.  If buffered un-balanced cables at instrument level go a long distance (>25 foot) to a mixing desk then it might be preferable to have it as a mic level balanced signal, but it is not usually essential (unlike with microphones).

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by SumOne

[rmorris]

On 17/05/2023 at 14:35, SumOne said:

 

Well, I'm no expert on it which is why I called up my expert witnesses! Perhaps they aren't reliable witnesses but Witness #1 is from the Epiphan website - a professional AV company, and Witness #2 from Moon Audio - a professional AV company (that sells cables). 

 

As far as I understand though: Balanced vs un-balanced and low impedence vs high impedence are different things but generally speaking a DI with XLR balanced signal changes the impedence to mic level (low impedance, or 'weaker'),  un-balanced signals from things like guitar pedals tend to be instrument level ('stronger') and are often buffered to preserve that over long cables. Mics have to have balanced signals as the low impedence 'weak' signal they provide to the mixing desk then go through a lot of pre-amp gain at the mixing desk - so any interferance they have picked up by the cable is also amplified a lot and is noticable. But that is not usually so necessary for 'stronger' instrument or line level signals - they are potentially better off being a instrument level signal and un-balanced rather than mic level and balanced, hence guitar to pedals and pedal to pedal and pedal to amp connections using un-balanced instrument level signals and adding a buffer to preserve it over long distances if needed.  If buffered un-balanced cables at instrument level go a long distance (>25 foot) to a mixing desk then it might be preferable to have it as a mic level balanced signal, but it is not usually essential (unlike with microphones).

 

 

 

yeah - this stuff isn't easy if it's not your thing. And the sort of "half-information" eg in the Epiphan piece (I found it on their website) really doesn't help.

 

There's a lot to unpack with Hi-Z / Lo-Z / Balanced / Unbalanced etc. I'm not going to do a full treatment here 🙂 But if you want technically excellent info I'd suggest looking up the work of Bill Whitlock (associated with Jensen transformers and THAT semiconductors). But a few quick points:

• Balanced audio can be any level. Obvs if going into a mic pre it needs to be fairly low level (or padded down at the input) to avoid clipping.
• Higher Impedance connections are more susceptible to external interference - so it is often worth trading level for a lower impedance (as with a DI transformer that presents a high Z to the source and a low Z to the mixing desk input etc).
• Contrary to what the article says - it is not necessary for a balanced connection to drive the two legs in anti-phase. Impedance matching on each leg is what matters wrt noise rejection (CMRR)

Edited May 18, 2023 by rmorris
clarification of the role of impedance in a balanced output.

[Elfrasho]

I'm a stomp user, and have no intentions of changing as it's exactly what I need for guitar and bass. Before this I was a zoom user which were great for bass, and i would be happy to gig with a zoom to this day. I want the full set up via the fx box.... amp and cab sims etc. 

 

However, I'm quite intrigued about the cheapo ones that are popping up, from NUX, Mooer and Harley Benton etc. Wonder how they are racking up. My singer/guitarist could be doing with a basic 3 button multiFX modeller.. ie 3 buttons clean/dirt/heavy, to be able to DI, and I'm tempted to just pick a cheapo brand FX for a bit of fun just to give it a run out!

[Chienmortbb]

The "witnesses" are talking ballcocks. Once you get to about 5M, I would say unbalanced is a no no. You may get away with it 9 times out of 10, but eventually it will bite you on the bum. @rmorris got it just about right.

 

Of course, you can use a TRS connector rather than an XLR for a balanced feed (I believe the HX Stomp does this). However, having an XLR output that is balanced will cover more bases. Added to that, an XLR is locking as standard, and they are easier to lengthen just by adding another cable, something jacks cannot do.