Using electric bass and synth live (unsure which forum to put this in so mods please move if you will...)

[dodge_bass]

Evening all  

 

Have recently started to play some synth bass keys and keen to incorporate this into my live setup. Just pondering on practicalities for the live set up and would happily take an advice or thoughts....

 

My question is really - would it be better to use a mini mixer to send both my electric bass and synth bass to FOH or two separate DI's (electric  / synth bass)? If sending two separate DI's I'm relying upon the sound engineer to be able to balance the two bass sends against eachother which I suspect might not be that good an idea....so even if my patches etc and electric bass are balanced against eachother doesn't mean the engineer will necessarily mix them that way. I feel like having a mini-mixer would allow easier tweaks to get the balance right but would an engineer want different bass types coming down one DI line? And if I did use a mini-mixer would that be detrimental to the sounds of both instrument as opposed to use dedicated bass DI's on each instrument? I dunno basically....

 

I'd love any thoughts anyone has or how you approach it if you do.

 

Thanks! 

 

 

[itu]

The basics:

If this is a live setup, an extra mixer will not ruin your sound, if the signal levels are reasonable. 

 

Another take:

If you are able to open your mouth and explain the person behind the big board, that this is your sound and what you want from it, you are on a right path. Then you can reduce the output system to an ABY pedal and a DI box (I am assuming you use only one instrument at the time).

 

By the way, if you do not know what is an ABY, I have included a picture of one:

[Waddo Soqable]

I'd keep it simple. When I've done this, admittedly many years ago, I just treated the two instruments as a completely separate entity, bear in mind you've got a volume knob on the synth /keyboard to keep a bit in hand in case the pa bloke turns you down! 

 

^nice moggy BTW.. 👍

Edited December 31, 2022 by Waddo Soqable

[mario_buoninfante]

I'd send 2 different signals to the FOH.

If they're able to mix well the elec bass with the other instruments, a synth bass shouldn't be a big deal.

If they are not, I think you'd be in trouble either way.

Also, let's keep in mind that what one hears on stage (for tons of reasons) might be totally different from what comes out of the main PA. So, I'd recommend not to try to "mix" on stage and let the FOH deal with that.

If you really want, you could use the mixer to mix your stage sound and still send 2 separate channels to the FOH.

Maybe a bit overkill though.

Edited December 31, 2022 by mario_buoninfante

[jrixn1]

I double all the time (mainly upright but occasionally synth) and I always send one DI signal.  If a sound person asked for two, I'd send two - but that's never happened.  Either way, get the levels right during soundcheck.

 

You've got to trust the sound person - or at least accept that the FOH mix is out of your control.  Tweaking levels (whether you're doubling or not) during the gig is a really bad idea as this will mess up the FOH mix.

 

If you want autonomous monitor control, you'll need to split your signal at the DI box (they normally have a 'link' or 'through' output) and send that part directly into a stage monitor/amp.  You can then tweak that part of the signal chain as much as you like as it's independent of FOH.

[Elfrasho]

I would give 2 lines to foh personally. Don't see any benefits at all two mixing it yourself .

[Buddster]

With my live engineers hat on, I'd prefer 2 separate di's to be able to mix foh as needed (and adjust to the room/venue), and supply you back with suitable foldback levels for you and the band. If you send me one di, well that's your responsibility and I will tell the band to shout at you and not me if it's wrong (much like a guitarist that hasn't matched their pedal board sounds). 

 

With my bass player hat on, I'd rather send 2 di's and trust them to have control of foh (and adjust to the room/venue) and take the pressure off me having to match levels on stage. 

[Dad3353]

Wot 'e sed ^^^^^^ . 

[Happy Jack]

Sending to lines independently can easily lead to problems with monitoring, unless you've done a fair bit of prep work beforehand.

 

If you're running your bass through backline (with a DI to the PA) so that your bass rig supplies the monitoring you need, then running your synthbass through the same backline gets rid of that (potential) problem.

 

[mario_buoninfante]

Another important thing to keep in mind is that the 2 instruments may need differnt eq/comp settings.

Providing 1 signal for both could cause issues with that.

[dodge_bass]

31 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Sending to lines independently can easily lead to problems with monitoring, unless you've done a fair bit of prep work beforehand.

 

If you're running your bass through backline (with a DI to the PA) so that your bass rig supplies the monitoring you need, then running your synthbass through the same backline gets rid of that (potential) problem.

 

thanks for all the input so far everyone.

 

So….if I sent two DI’s (synth / bass) to FOH and then from the output of the DI’s went into a mini mixer then I could send both signals into one bass amp

and have the ability to adjust onstage monitoring via the mixer whilst FOH has complete control over the DI signals for the actual mixing. 
 

And if I spend time balancing the synth bass levels against the elec bass levels in the studio then in theory the FOH engineer just needs to turn on and set the faders at about same 

 

does that all seem sensible?

 

 

[dodge_bass]

Last Q - what sort of DI box for the synth? It’s a Moog Sub25….would a passive box like a radial JDI work? Or would it need to be active? 

[mario_buoninfante]

55 minutes ago, dodge_bass said:

thanks for all the input so far everyone.

 

So….if I sent two DI’s (synth / bass) to FOH and then from the output of the DI’s went into a mini mixer then I could send both signals into one bass amp

and have the ability to adjust onstage monitoring via the mixer whilst FOH has complete control over the DI signals for the actual mixing. 
 

And if I spend time balancing the synth bass levels against the elec bass levels in the studio then in theory the FOH engineer just needs to turn on and set the faders at about same 

 

does that all seem sensible?

 

 

 

I wouldn't connect the mixer to the amp, the impedances wouldn't probably match well.

Not sure what is your setup, but you could use one of those a+b a/b pedals (to sum/switch) to go into the amp.

But try to send the 2 signals to FOH before that.

For your elec bass any pedal with a balanced out would do.

For the synth a DI with an instrument out would do too. The instrument out would be needed to go to the sum/swith pedal that then goes to the amp.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by mario_buoninfante

[jrixn1]

39 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

 

I wouldn't connect the mixer to the amp, the impedences wouldn't probably match well.

Not sure what is your setup, but you could use one of those a+b a/b pedals (to sum/switch) to go into the amp.

But try to send the 2 signals to FOH before that.

 

 

A Boss LS-2 would work well here, in A+B mode.  Plus the other modes give you future options if you ever modify your setup or routing.

[mario_buoninfante]

8 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

A Boss LS-2 would work well here, in A+B mode.  Plus the other modes give you future options if you ever modify your setup or routing.

 

that said, this seems to have 1 instrument input and 2 return inputs, 1 instr out and 2 send outs.
I'd expect these to have difference impedances. I don't think that connecting an instrument to a return is ideal.

Edited December 31, 2022 by mario_buoninfante

[mario_buoninfante]

 

[jrixn1]

6 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

 

that said, this seems to have 1 instrument input and 2 return inputs, 1 instr out and 2 send outs.
I'd expect these to have difference impedances. I don't think that connecting an instrument to a return is ideal.

 

Yes, you use the returns as instrument inputs.  It's one of their recommended setups:

 

 

 

[mario_buoninfante]

15 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Yes, you use the returns as instrument inputs.  It's one of their recommended setups:

 

 

 

 

Nice, they have accounted for that then
The name (return) was a bit misleading for me, but that clarifies things.

[dodge_bass]

19 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Yes, you use the returns as instrument inputs.  It's one of their recommended setups:

 

 

 

Neat - I’ve got an LS2 so I’ll try that. Just need a DI box for the synth. 

[Boodang]

I often use a small mixer live with my basses (I usually have at least 3 basses at a gig), but if I have the opportunity to bring out the Moog phatty as well, I'll run a separate di for that as foh eq/comp etc will be way different. 

[dodge_bass]

10 minutes ago, Boodang said:

I often use a small mixer live with my basses (I usually have at least 3 basses at a gig), but if I have the opportunity to bring out the Moog phatty as well, I'll run a separate di for that as foh eq/comp etc will be way different. 

Do you have your own DI for the Phatty? if so what do you use? 

[MrProud]

1 hour ago, dodge_bass said:

Do you have your own DI for the Phatty? if so what do you use? 

Stop faffing about and buy another noble 😆

[dodge_bass]

22 minutes ago, MrProud said:

Stop faffing about and buy another noble 😆

I’m not sure I can function with no kidneys 🤪

[mike257]

As a live sound guy and a bassist, I'd absolutely prefer that to be two lines. 

 

As others have said, both sources will have a different sonic character and need treating differently in the mix. 

 

As for DI boxes, my go-to recommendation is always Orchid Electronics. Small UK based company, hand assembled kit for a very, very good price. Old school website, you have to actually email to place an order, but you're dealing directly with the guy who's building the kit!

 

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk

[Boodang]

19 hours ago, dodge_bass said:

Do you have your own DI for the Phatty? if so what do you use? 

Yep, I use the Radial Stage Bug SB2. I use 2 of them, one dedicated to the Phatty and another for the output from the small mackie mixer for the basses.