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lownote12

What if it's too small?

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Posted (edited)

Being without a band again (sigh) I'm thinking to downsize my investment in gear.   I've been tinkered with the idea of flogging my Phil Jones cabs and buying a cheap Ashdown to go with my MAG300 head. But then a cheap cab will likely be heavy, an impediment if I do ever get in another band. So then I thought about flogging my 4x7" Phil Jones cab and keeping the 2x7" to go with my Markbass Nano.  Super small, super light rig... but would it be powerful enough for a small pub gig with drums and guitars? The Nano's rated at 300w, the Cab 27 at 200w. With the single 8 ohm cab the Nano will be doing around, what: 150-180w? In your experience and/or opinion will that be enough, do you think?  After all, people run the Elf through single 10" and 2x8" cabs. Yes, I know I could simply try out to see, but like I say I no longer have a band - or any mates (sniff).  

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Edited by lownote12

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I've run my peavey TNT 130 watts with our band, drums all mic'd up,  Marshall 100w tube and 410 guitarist and it was plenty loud enough for onstage monitoring with Di to the PA . Can you Di to the PA as well? That would sort you out.

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Just now, skidder652003 said:

I've run my peavey TNT 130 watts with our band, drums all mic'd up,  Marshall 100w tube and 410 guitarist and it was plenty loud enough for onstage monitoring with Di to the PA . Can you Di to the PA as well? That would sort you out.

We're talking Norfolk here. All is simples.  PA to the DI would be Sylvia wot works for the CID.

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I don't understand the need to sell stuff when a band breaks up and the gigs dry up. If you still want to gig you have to treat this as a temporary lull. I'd keep everything and find that next band.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I don't understand the need to sell stuff when a band breaks up and the gigs dry up. If you still want to gig you have to treat this as a temporary lull. I'd keep everything and find that next band.

I'm a poor ol' pensioner and have limited resources.  On the grounds that it took me seven years to get in my first band, I'd like to free up as much dosh as feasible while retaining the bare necessities for when the next seven years is up. Anyway, treat it as a tech question:  what's the minimum you can get away with weight, size and cost-wise with an average small band.

Edited by lownote12

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It depends a huge amount on the volume and sounds you are looking to balance with. I often play pub gigs with a 40w 1x10, but that's with some very controlled players, even when rocking out.

I did some deps with a local metal covers band with 1500w and a Barefaced Big Twin II and they asked me to turn up halfway through!

The only way to really find out is to try it in your situation- you could be surprised, in either direction!

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I don't understand the need to sell stuff when a band breaks up and the gigs dry up. If you still want to gig you have to treat this as a temporary lull. I'd keep everything and find that next band.

Yeah, I’ve seen quite a few people mention doing that. I sell the gear I’m not going to ever use or can’t store/transport, but I keep a gigable rig to hand even though I haven’t played live in years.

(Although to caveat that - I only have a single 2x10 cab, there are circumstances where I may add a cab and then move it on if that changes.)

Edited by nilebodgers

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30 minutes ago, lownote12 said:

Being without a band again (sigh) I'm thinking to downsize my investment in gear.   I've been tinkered with the idea of flogging my Phil Jones cabs and buying a cheap Ashdown to go with my MAG300 head. But then a cheap cab will likely be heavy, an impediment if I do ever get in another band. So then I thought about flogging my 4x7" Phil Jones cab and keeping the 2x7" to go with my Markbass Nano.  Super small, super light rig... but would it be powerful enough for a small pub gig with drums and guitars? The Nano's rated at 300w, the Cab 27 at 200w. With the single 8 ohm cab the Nano will be doing around, what: 150-180w? In your experience and/or opinion will that be enough, do you think?  After all, people run the Elf through single 10" and 2x8" cabs. Yes, I know I could simply try out to see, but like I say I no longer have a band - or any mates (sniff).  

 

Im using 2 PJB C4 lightweight with [this week] aBlackstar Unity 700 amp. Very light and portable

Reheasal with a drummer playing normally, 1 cab, plenty loud enough. Gig with 2 cabs pretty loud as long as you dont want an 8x10

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1 hour ago, lownote12 said:

. . . .  treat it as a tech question:  what's the minimum you can get away with weight, size and cost-wise with an average small band.

The minimum I'd gig with is 2 x 112 cabs. I have gigged 1 x 112 but that was an unusually quiet band.

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I’ve done this before several times deciding that’s it no more bands 

Last year I sold off all my guitar gigging gear and then decided one last go at a decent local band but returning to bass.

Ive enjoyed my new found excitement of getting a band ready and getting nice gig worthy gear ... it’s my hobby and I would miss everything about bands and live music if I stopped completely and I’m 60 now and been in bands on and off for 40yrs either as a bassist or guitarist and the gear I’ve had from nearly every make would make your eyes water 

Keep your gear and look or advertise for a new band 👍

As you know I’m near to Norfolk and there are opportunities if you make them happen 😉

 

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You'd probably be up in cash if you sold the PJ cabs and replaced with a secondhand Ashdown RM 1x15 or 2x10. They weigh about 15kg and are pretty good for gigging. Or go for something even cheaper off tinternet. 

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If you sell the 2x7 and keep the 4x7, you should have enough for small gigs. I don't think a 2x7 would cut it (I know PJB cabs are big sounding for their size - I have 5 of their 4x5s). As others say, why sell now? Prices for used kit are low at the moment because few have any gigs to speak of in the book. I've actually been buying stuff for less than I reckon it's worth.

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11 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

If you sell the 2x7 and keep the 4x7, you should have enough for small gigs. I don't think a 2x7 would cut it (I know PJB cabs are big sounding for their size - I have 5 of their 4x5s). As others say, why sell now? Prices for used kit are low at the moment because few have any gigs to speak of in the book. I've actually been buying stuff for less than I reckon it's worth.

Don't suppose you want a left handed 1984 Aria SB....? 

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22 hours ago, lownote12 said:

We're talking Norfolk here. All is simples.  PA to the DI would be Sylvia wot works for the CID.

 

22 hours ago, lownote12 said:

I'm a poor ol' pensioner and have limited resources.  On the grounds that it took me seven years to get in my first band, I'd like to free up as much dosh as feasible while retaining the bare necessities for when the next seven years is up. Anyway, treat it as a tech question:  what's the minimum you can get away with weight, size and cost-wise with an average small band.

As a tech question there's a fairly simple answer. If you can't use the PA then you need more than stage monitoring levels. Your 2x7 would probably do the stage monitoring but not the room filling. To do that you need something like 120dB plus so you need a reasonably efficient speaker. Efficiency combined with good handling of the lower frequencies comes from cone area and better magnet/motor systems.  You can get small light 12" based speakers that will do this but they tend towards the expensive, technically it's towards the limits of what is possible with current tech and that adds cost. If you want to release as much money as possible I'd be looking at a 2x10 or a 15 as the cheapest way of achieving a single speaker solution. Alternatively go for a reasonable 12 but expect to have to add a second if you start gigging again and funds allow.

There's an Ashdown Rootmaster 115 for sale down here for £120 for example, that's too far for you to collect obviously but it is an example of what you might expect to pay.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

As a tech question there's a fairly simple answer. If you can't use the PA then you need more than stage monitoring levels. Your 2x7 would probably do the stage monitoring but not the room filling. To do that you need something like 120dB plus so you need a reasonably efficient speaker. Efficiency combined with good handling of the lower frequencies comes from cone area and better magnet/motor systems.  You can get small light 12" based speakers that will do this but they tend towards the expensive, technically it's towards the limits of what is possible with current tech and that adds cost. If you want to release as much money as possible I'd be looking at a 2x10 or a 15 as the cheapest way of achieving a single speaker solution. Alternatively go for a reasonable 12 but expect to have to add a second if you start gigging again and funds allow.

There's an Ashdown Rootmaster 115 for sale down here for £120 for example, that's too far for you to collect obviously but it is an example of what you might expect to pay.

True, but a PJB Cab 47 will be easily the equivalent of most good quality 12s (their 7" drivers are more efficient and bigger sounding than their 5s). By the time OP has sold his cabs and bought replacements, he will be no better off.

Edited by Dan Dare

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5 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

Don't suppose you want a left handed 1984 Aria SB....? 

Tempting, but I'll pass, thanks 😊

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4 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

True, but a PJB Cab 47 will be easily the equivalent of most good quality 12s (their 7" drivers are more efficient and bigger sounding than their 5s). By the time OP has sold his cabs and bought replacements, he will be no better off.

Hi Dan, I tried to find out the sensitivity of the 2x7 but if it is available I couldn't find it. Just on surface area two 7's are smaller than a 12. ( the surface area is proportional to the square of the radius after all) The frequency figures Phil Jones gives for the 2x7 indicate that they are tuned more for low frequency response than sensitivity, basically they either give the response he states and they won't be super-efficient or they don't have that response. From what I've heard of the 5's he tends to design for good sound rather than volume. The online reviews of them seem to concentrate on recommendations from jazz players rather than for rock. I've no experience of the 2x7 but I'd be surprised if they push the envelope of what is possible by much. Without some figures I am just surmising and if we can get some numbers, I'm happy to be corrected.

Of course the OP has something saleable and he could sell any time, so waiting until he does have a band makes sense. If he needs more 'oomf' at the time he could do the swap then.

Of course this is just physics, we haven't mentioned how they sound. I think that's more important, especially if he has to live with said speaker for a while before he joins a band. I just wanted to answer the question 'how much is enough?'.

 

 

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On 05/05/2021 at 17:38, uk_lefty said:

You'd probably be up in cash if you sold the PJ cabs and replaced with a secondhand Ashdown RM 1x15 or 2x10. They weigh about 15kg and are pretty good for gigging. Or go for something even cheaper off tinternet. 

+1

Sell the PJ cabs and search out Ashdown  cabs driven by your MAG head. If a band opportunity arises consider upgrading the head when needed. 

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11 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

True, but a PJB Cab 47 will be easily the equivalent of most good quality 12s (their 7" drivers are more efficient and bigger sounding than their 5s). By the time OP has sold his cabs and bought replacements, he will be no better off.

You may well be right but it is subjective and really depends on the 12.

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16 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi Dan, I tried to find out the sensitivity of the 2x7 but if it is available I couldn't find it. Just on surface area two 7's are smaller than a 12. ( the surface area is proportional to the square of the radius after all) The frequency figures Phil Jones gives for the 2x7 indicate that they are tuned more for low frequency response than sensitivity, basically they either give the response he states and they won't be super-efficient or they don't have that response. From what I've heard of the 5's he tends to design for good sound rather than volume. The online reviews of them seem to concentrate on recommendations from jazz players rather than for rock. I've no experience of the 2x7 but I'd be surprised if they push the envelope of what is possible by much. Without some figures I am just surmising and if we can get some numbers, I'm happy to be corrected.

Hi Phil. I agree, which is why I suggested OP keep the 4x7 and sell the 2x7 if he has to get rid of something. I agree about the 5" drivers being better for tone than volume. The way around that is to use them in multiples, which is what I do. I also find that a couple of 4x5s plus a decent 12 (I use a tweeterless Berg - other makes are available, of course) to add some weight to the sound makes for a powerful compact rig. It's full range enough not to need a tweeter, which suits me as I don't like them for bass because they emphasise fret rattle and other nasties. Takes a bit of driving, but watts are cheap these days.

I'm using them in a function band that plays mainly classic soul, rhythm and blues and similar. I may well use something different in an out and out rock setting, but as I'm ancient, that isn't likely to happen.

I've tried a PJB 4x7 cab next to a 4x5 and it was definitely fuller and louder with the same head and settings, although I can't find comparative sensitivity/efficiency figures. You'd expect that, though, given the surface area of the drivers.

My central point was that OP would be best advised not to sell now, whilst prices for used gear are depressed and then re-buy when the world is back to normal, people have money to spend again and prices rise. 

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Sorry Dan, I missed that you were recommending keeping the 4x7. There's no technical reason why that shouldn't be able to keep up with a 12 and I've been toying myself with the idea of a 4x8. 

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Posted (edited)

I read that the sensitivity of that 27 is 95db, doesn't sound like it'd make an awful lot of the 150-180w going into it...it all depends on the band (and the gigs), tho, but without PA support I'd want a bit more...I've gigged with a Fender Rumble 100w 112 (albeit with a much better/more sensitive speaker in the cab), but only for small trio stuff...

Edited by Muzz

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1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Sorry Dan, I missed that you were recommending keeping the 4x7. There's no technical reason why tha.t shouldn't be able to keep up with a 12 and I've been toying myself with the idea of a 4x8. 

The key hear is that 4x7 is a lot  more cone area that 4x5.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

The key hear is that 4x7 is a lot  more cone area that 4x5.

Yep. 154 sq. in vs 78.5. Quite a bit more than a 12 and not far short of a 15.

Edited by Dan Dare
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OP here.  Tnx for all the input. Pretty much as I expected, but its nice to have it confirmed. I do agree that selling my current PJ cabs isn't going to put me on Forbes' rich list.  I also think the 2x7" is too little for anything but a small acoustic gig. I'm keeping my eye out for a cheap Ashdown box to see me through the lean years before my next gig, and until I find it I'll advertise both PJ cabs and obv keep them to hand until they go, which may be a while.   

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