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A post brexit question.


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Just for clarification, if I sell my (say) Alembic for £2k to someone in Belgium, am I right in assuming the buyer will now have to pay an extra £400ish (~20%) in import duty at his/her end ... ie, exactly same principle as if I were to sell to someone in US (though maybe exact import duty rates vary)? 

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37 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Just for clarification, if I sell my (say) Alembic for £2k to someone in Belgium, am I right in assuming the buyer will now have to pay an extra £400ish (~20%) in import duty at his/her end ... ie, exactly same principle as if I were to sell to someone in US (though maybe exact import duty rates vary)? 

As I understand it, they'd have to pay the VAT in their country and probably a UPS type handling fee - but no import duty.

Edited by geoham
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35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Is DV247 a "foreign" retailer though? If it is importing the goods from its German warehouse first that's it's call and it can deal with the paperwork internally.

Very much the model that we are hoping Thomann will adopt in the near future.

Assuming the entity purchased from was "MUSIC STORE PROFESSIONAL UK / DV247 LIMITED", then this is a UK company, presumably fully registered for UK VAT. 

I would argue that this transaction does not involve an import by a UK based purchaser, despite the fact it may have been shipped from Germany. The importer is the UK DV247 entity, and probaly involves an intercompany sale by their German parent entity. 

A UK based company can't sell something to a person in the UK without charging UK VAT. There' is no way that this should have been stopped at customs, nor should UPS have charged you anything.

There may be an argument that the goods should have first come to DV247's UK site, rather than being shipped to you directly - I don't know how that works these days. (

There's also the scenario that if you've purchased from Music Store in Germany rather than the UK subsidary, then UPS have done things properly. Although in this case, the retailler should not have charged VAT.

My advice - check the order confirmation and query the VAT charge with DV247. Then you may need to deal with UPS... 

 

George

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19 minutes ago, ambient said:

Yes, and as above it’s not duty but VAT they pay, so it depends on the VAT rate in their country.

Thanks, I worded my question badly. I meant VAT and I see the Belgium VAT rate is 21%. As you may tell, my question was not purely hypothetical. So that's a sale that probably isn't going to happen ...

Edited by Clarky
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49 minutes ago, geoham said:

Assuming the entity purchased from was "MUSIC STORE PROFESSIONAL UK / DV247 LIMITED", then this is a UK company, presumably fully registered for UK VAT. 

I would argue that this transaction does not involve an import by a UK based purchaser, despite the fact it may have been shipped from Germany. The importer is the UK DV247 entity, and probaly involves an intercompany sale by their German parent entity. 

A UK based company can't sell something to a person in the UK without charging UK VAT. There' is no way that this should have been stopped at customs, nor should UPS have charged you anything.

There may be an argument that the goods should have first come to DV247's UK site, rather than being shipped to you directly - I don't know how that works these days. (

There's also the scenario that if you've purchased from Music Store in Germany rather than the UK subsidary, then UPS have done things properly. Although in this case, the retailler should not have charged VAT.

My advice - check the order confirmation and query the VAT charge with DV247. Then you may need to deal with UPS... 

 

George

The supply will be made from the establishment most closely linked to the supply. If the order is from Germany and exceeds the £135 limit, it will be a German export.

Edited by Steve Browning
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On 12/01/2021 at 16:45, tauzero said:

Do you have a link to find out more information? There doesn't seem to be any change on the gov.uk website for the advice on exporting from GB to NI.

Northern Ireland will now be treated by Thomann as still in the EU.

F8AEF5E6-3DAD-4DDB-851B-FC57D43B579C.jpeg

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10 hours ago, geoham said:

Assuming the entity purchased from was "MUSIC STORE PROFESSIONAL UK / DV247 LIMITED", then this is a UK company, presumably fully registered for UK VAT. 

I would argue that this transaction does not involve an import by a UK based purchaser, despite the fact it may have been shipped from Germany. The importer is the UK DV247 entity, and probaly involves an intercompany sale by their German parent entity. 

A UK based company can't sell something to a person in the UK without charging UK VAT. There' is no way that this should have been stopped at customs, nor should UPS have charged you anything.

There may be an argument that the goods should have first come to DV247's UK site, rather than being shipped to you directly - I don't know how that works these days. (

There's also the scenario that if you've purchased from Music Store in Germany rather than the UK subsidary, then UPS have done things properly. Although in this case, the retailler should not have charged VAT.

My advice - check the order confirmation and query the VAT charge with DV247. Then you may need to deal with UPS... 

 

George

Whether the company has a UK base is only half of the problem:

If the goods supplied reside across the EU border (ie. They entered the EU and crossed the duty border) then they will be then have to be imported to the UK. Duty will be applied (unless under £135). This isn't discretionary, or a matter of companies pushing paperwork in a certain way: it is absolute.

If the company has a UK base it has two options to avoid their goods crossing two borders and incurring duty twice (which is happening a lot at the moment due to many manufacturer's pan-Euro distribution arrangements):

- they can bring their goods from manufacturer direct to the UK and supply from a UK facility like other UK dealers (rather than just having an administration 'office'). This is expensive, but the way some big EU companies may go

- they can house and supply their goods from a bonded warehouse in the EU. This specific facility, whilst physically located in the EU, is notionally before the border and so not 'imported' when they enter the warehouse in the normal way. The company can therefore choose to import them to the EU, or UK, or wherever instead when they are sold.

The VAT implication is of course different, and (threshold aside), should be charged at the rate where the customer resides, and is normally applied by HMRC (via the courier) on imports. If the goods are imported over the threshold and the supplier has charged VAT, they should be able to refund this as they have exported it from the EU, and shouldn't have charged in the first place.

Edited by deebee
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12 hours ago, Bassy said:

Hi, I bought a Fender fretless neck from DV247, £193, shipped from Germany, delivered by UPS. I was charged an extra £51 by UPS before they would deliver. So it seems that the UK import charges are now the same for USA or Europe or the world. Not sure what happened to all those brexit trade deals?? 

The free trade deal is essentially meaningless for our industry as it only covers goods substantially manufactured within the UK or EU.

Most goods in MI are made outside, and so rules of origin mean duty applies every time the goods cross the border.

VAT from registered companies should have little tangible effect on the price: goods over the threshold should be supplied exempt, and HMRC will instead charge via the courier. Will make a big difference on used goods crossing borders though.

Rough guess:-

New goods crossing either way between UK and EU: now circa 3-4% more expensive + £10 courier import fees

Used goods crossing either way between UK and EU: now circa 25% more expensive + £10 courier import fees

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20 hours ago, ambient said:

Yes, and as above it’s not duty but VAT they pay, so it depends on the VAT rate in their country.

They will pay both VAT and duty if the goods aren't manufactured in the UK or EU (which most stuff in this industry isnt).

Budget 23%+£10 uplift on price as rough guess depending on the item and the courier.

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On 04/01/2021 at 11:02, BaggyMan said:

ok calm down, its not a right /wrongs about BREXIt post..

So,  have seen folks on the EU side of things selling stuff, what exactly has changed?

Seen a bunch of comments and cost of shipping a bass to say..France

were:

Cost of shipping + insurance.

Now

Cost of shipping + (20% VAT on shipping cost) + insurance

plus buyer pays import on it?

And in reverse

before:

Cost of shipping +insurance no surcharges

Now

Cost of shipping +20% +import duties??

Is that correct??  does anyone have any real facts on it (as opposed to general opinions)

If that is correct a £500 bass turn into probably about £100 or so more with additional vat and import duties?

Thanks for you commentary I was going to raise that issue this morning,

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23 hours ago, Bassy said:

Hi, I bought a Fender fretless neck from DV247, £193, shipped from Germany, delivered by UPS. I was charged an extra £51 by UPS before they would deliver. So it seems that the UK import charges are now the same for USA or Europe or the world. Not sure what happened to all those brexit trade deals?? 

I have asked DV247 if this correct for the UPS charge? Still waiting for an answer. I'll let you all know the outcome.

I wonder how this import charging is going to affect all of the retailers with a UK base, but their stock in Euro warehouses? Also what about the Euro bass makers? It might end up with USA Fenders being cheaper than Sandbergs etc?

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Given the current situation I wonder how many courier companies will levy incorrect charges, be that unknowingly on their part, or knowingly hoping the customer won’t make enquiries.

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6 minutes ago, Bassy said:

I have asked DV247 if this correct for the UPS charge? Still waiting for an answer. I'll let you all know the outcome.

I wonder how this import charging is going to affect all of the retailers with a UK base, but their stock in Euro warehouses? Also what about the Euro bass makers? It might end up with USA Fenders being cheaper than Sandbergs etc?

Sorry, forgot to say thanks for the informative replies. 

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26 minutes ago, Bassy said:

I have asked DV247 if this correct for the UPS charge? Still waiting for an answer. I'll let you all know the outcome.

I wonder how this import charging is going to affect all of the retailers with a UK base, but their stock in Euro warehouses? Also what about the Euro bass makers? It might end up with USA Fenders being cheaper than Sandbergs etc?

This is from a BBC site. It appears that the import charges are even more when sending from UK to France! This is going to hurt a lot of small businesses, the govt should sort this mess out.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-55593308

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7 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Given the current situation I wonder how many courier companies will levy incorrect charges, be that unknowingly on their part, or knowingly hoping the customer won’t make enquiries.

Whilst mistakes can happen, it is far less likely that the courier will be the cause of incorrect charging.

The exporter is responsible for declaring the value of the goods, the correct commodity code, and the origin. Most courier's systems will then process this automatically depending on the country they are importing to.

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7 hours ago, Bassy said:

I have asked DV247 if this correct for the UPS charge? Still waiting for an answer. I'll let you all know the outcome.

I wonder how this import charging is going to affect all of the retailers with a UK base, but their stock in Euro warehouses? Also what about the Euro bass makers? It might end up with USA Fenders being cheaper than Sandbergs etc?

The charge certainly looks about right for your product being imported from the EU.

What would be interesting is if DV247 charged VAT. If they did, then I can think of only 3 scenarios:-

- they supplied the goods from within the UK (in which case you shouldn't have been charged anything by UPS, and if you say the goods were in Germany then that can't be the case)

- they have a bonded warehouse facility In the EU. In this case, you would be billed from their UK office and shouldn't pay any charges to a courier (they notionally 'import' the goods from the duty-free warehouse to their UK operation, and notionally supply you from there). Again, you shouldn't have been charged anything by UPS.

- they have mistakenly charged you VAT, in which case the charge from UPS is still correct (as it is over £135), and DV247 should refund the VAT they charged.

I suspect the 3rd is most likely. 

Edited by deebee
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On 11/01/2021 at 11:59, Jonesy said:

So, after going through the various threads on the ins and outs of buying from the EU there were a few different opinions on what'll happen when you buy stuff. I was definitely confused. 

Anyway, I decided to buy a pedal and see what happens, so I bought from DV247 and the pedal was shipped from their warehouse in Germany. It arrived today, with fairly minimal delay and no extra charges. Whether that was because they have a UK shop, or if it means there won't be any charge from other EU sellers I don't know. Just thought I'd share in case anyone was wondering about buying from them and wasn't sure about charges etc. 

 

How long did it take to arrive from Germany bud ? I've got some gear ordered but haven't heard anything from them

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1 hour ago, Dov65 said:

How long did it take to arrive from Germany bud ? I've got some gear ordered but haven't heard anything from them

It wasn't that long in the whole grand scheme of things, the biggest delay was probably them actually shipping it. I think I placed the order on Jan 2nd, but only got a notification it was sent on the 6th, which isn't so bad considering holidays and the likely back log etc. It turned up on the morning of the 11th. 

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I just sent something to a guy in Belfast. I had to complete an online customs declaration, which asked various questions about the item’s origin, and it’s value. I then had to print off three copies, which I signed and dated, and placed in an envelope taped to the parcel. That’s just one single item, taking maybe five minutes. I wouldn’t fancy having to do it for multiple different items, it would very soon get annoying.

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33 minutes ago, ambient said:

I just sent something to a guy in Belfast. I had to complete an online customs declaration, which asked various questions about the item’s origin, and it’s value. I then had to print off three copies, which I signed and dated, and placed in an envelope taped to the parcel. That’s just one single item, taking maybe five minutes. I wouldn’t fancy having to do it for multiple different items, it would very soon get annoying.

I just did the same for a pedal I sent to Ireland and can imagine it'd soon become tiresome!!

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Is there an update on this already?

I'm based in Belgium and bought a bass cab here on the forum a couple of weeks ago,

but due to this whole Brexit thing the U.K. based seller hasn't been able to ship it to me as most couriers are not accepting any packages for overseas shipping yet untill this whole thing clears out.

Any idea which couriers DO send overseas atm?

 

Thanks in advance!

Donovan

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