Do you consider reading music important?

[greghagger]

I am considering making a video course to help bass players to read music. So I am genuinely interested in how many players want to start reading. 

When I prepare my weekly videos, I always provide a PDF with both the written part and Tab. I understand that some players have no interest in reading music, and therefore the Tab is useful to them. 

But personally, I believe that reading music can enhance your musicianship, especially alongside developing a good ear.  

Recently a few players have been getting in touch, expressing that they wished they had learnt to read from the beginning, and that they found that many teachers don’t offer this.  Some even actively discourage learning to read. 

So what do you think? Anyone who wished they had started reading music earlier? Anyone who is not interested in reading, in the slightest?

I have attached a short video lesson, that will give those of you interested in starting to read, a little kickstarter.

 

 

 

[Linus27]

Yes please, definitely interested. I've played for 32 years, professional for many years and currently doing around 100 gigs a year. I don't need someone to teach me to play bass but to find someone to help me just read music has been really hard to the point of just giving up. So you've got me interested for sure

[greghagger]

3 hours ago, Linus27 said:

Yes please, definitely interested. I've played for 32 years, professional for many years and currently doing around 100 gigs a year. I don't need someone to teach me to play bass but to find someone to help me just read music has been really hard to the point of just giving up. So you've got me interested for sure

This is a story that I am hearing more and more. Good experienced bass players who want to read music. 

I definitely think it would be beneficial then, to aim the course at players who can already play, rather than beginners.

[Burns-bass]

The difficulty comes when you try to learn how to read music after playing bass for a period. You're trying to impose a framework onto something that you've already learned. It's difficult - but not impossible.

I think reading music is a fundamental skill that musicians can benefit from, but it's obviously not essential - particularly given the incredible music that's been written and recorded by musicians who can't read music.

[greghagger]

43 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

The difficulty comes when you try to learn how to read music after playing bass for a period. You're trying to impose a framework onto something that you've already learned. It's difficult - but not impossible.

I think reading music is a fundamental skill that musicians can benefit from, but it's obviously not essential - particularly given the incredible music that's been written and recorded by musicians who can't read music.

Yes I agree with you, that it’s more difficult to learn to read once you reach a certain level of playing. While teaching, I have experienced frustration from  players like this. It’s obviously much better to learn to read as you go along, but still useful to learn later on. 

On your second point, I agree that it’s not essential to read music, but it is a very beneficial skill to have. 

[Twigman]

I used to be able to read treble clef  - I am OK getting the pitch right but reading rhythm eludes me.

Bass clef is still a mystery to me ( I can never remember the stave).

[greghagger]

8 minutes ago, Twigman said:

I used to be able to read treble clef  - I am OK getting the pitch right but reading rhythm eludes me.

Bass clef is still a mystery to me ( I can never remember the stave).

If you used to read treble clef, then it’s pretty quick to convert that over to bass clef. 

I personally think rhythm is easier to learn than pitch, but it’s helpful to have a system to help with this. Personally I think the ‘American’ system of using quarter notes, eighths note, etc. is easier to understand than the more tradition system of crotchets and quavers. 

[Twigman]

Just now, greghagger said:

I think the ‘American’ system of using quarter notes, eighths note, etc. is easier to understand than the more tradition system of crotchets and quavers. 

I understand what a minim, a crotchet, a quaver, a semi-quaver etc is........I just can't read the rhythm.

[greghagger]

18 minutes ago, Twigman said:

I understand what a minim, a crotchet, a quaver, a semi-quaver etc is........I just can't read the rhythm.

There are shortcuts by learning frequently used rhythms, and dividing it all mathematically initially.

I will definitely make a video course!

[paul_c2]

If I were a teacher I'd teach reading music from the outset. Its a sensible way to allow for communication, which is pretty essential in being able to effectively teach someone. Of course, I'm not actually a teacher so I don't need to worry about how I would teach someone who could play bass but can't read music, how to do it - I imagine for some it would be a long process (and feel like not much progress, or point to it, or value for money).

If you can work out a concise way to do it, good on you and best of luck!

I think if I was a teacher I'd want some kind of agreement that I can direct the, ummmmmmm, musical direction such that I'd be able to insist on learning to read. Maybe short term I could do a bit whilst skirting around it, but eventually it would be a barrier, so I'd structure it to include that aspect.

But since I'm not (a teacher), I don't need to worry about it! I can do it and get the benefit off it, I don't need to worry or convince others if they don't want to listen or don't agree with me.

[greghagger]

38 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

If I were a teacher I'd teach reading music from the outset. Its a sensible way to allow for communication, which is pretty essential in being able to effectively teach someone. Of course, I'm not actually a teacher so I don't need to worry about how I would teach someone who could play bass but can't read music, how to do it - I imagine for some it would be a long process (and feel like not much progress, or point to it, or value for money).

If you can work out a concise way to do it, good on you and best of luck!

I think if I was a teacher I'd want some kind of agreement that I can direct the, ummmmmmm, musical direction such that I'd be able to insist on learning to read. Maybe short term I could do a bit whilst skirting around it, but eventually it would be a barrier, so I'd structure it to include that aspect.

But since I'm not (a teacher), I don't need to worry about it! I can do it and get the benefit off it, I don't need to worry or convince others if they don't want to listen or don't agree with me.

I absolutely agree that by far the best way is to learn to read from the start. That’s how I teach my pupils. 

But I am finding out that there are swaths of players who are competent on their instrument, but can’t read. I don’t see many resources to help with this, and I think it’s important that the help should be out there. 

[paul_c2]

At least, on the scheme of things, bass sits in the "middle" of ease of playing vs ease of reading. For example: French Horn. Fiendishly hard to play well, yes you can make fart noises but anything musical needs years of dedication and hundreds of hours of practice. Even an apparently simple line as notated, is difficult to play. So the reading really is a bit of a non-issue here.

Compare with piano. Dead easy to make a noise on, compared to the French horn. A cat, or 5 year old child, can play the lowest note and the highest note and all those in between. And a beginner will soon be learning both hands at once and chords etc etc etc. The notation is clearly more complex than the French Horn, for a start there's 2 clefs, 2 or more notes at once, etc etc. Fortunately, it is convention to learn to read music to play piano.

Compare with electric guitar. Very little resources around to learn to read, very little standard notation music published, the same issues with polyphony as the piano (except, sensibly, it sticks to one clef and stave), it would be a nightmare to try learn to read on electric guitar. In fact most people don't, and I don't blame them!

At least bass is somewhere in between the extremes presented.

[greghagger]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

At least, on the scheme of things, bass sits in the "middle" of ease of playing vs ease of reading. For example: French Horn. Fiendishly hard to play well, yes you can make fart noises but anything musical needs years of dedication and hundreds of hours of practice. Even an apparently simple line as notated, is difficult to play. So the reading really is a bit of a non-issue here.

Compare with piano. Dead easy to make a noise on, compared to the French horn. A cat, or 5 year old child, can play the lowest note and the highest note and all those in between. And a beginner will soon be learning both hands at once and chords etc etc etc. The notation is clearly more complex than the French Horn, for a start there's 2 clefs, 2 or more notes at once, etc etc. Fortunately, it is convention to learn to read music to play piano.

Compare with electric guitar. Very little resources around to learn to read, very little standard notation music published, the same issues with polyphony as the piano (except, sensibly, it sticks to one clef and stave), it would be a nightmare to try learn to read on electric guitar. In fact most people don't, and I don't blame them!

At least bass is somewhere in between the extremes presented.

Love your summary of the different instruments here. Especially like your description of the French Horn 😂

Coming from a background of piano and trumpet, I tend to agree with you. 

Most reading bassist I know, learnt to read on a previous instrument. I wonder if this is representative of the wider bass community?

[paul_c2]

Possibly, but it might be true that most people who could read on ANY instrument, learnt on a previous instrument, if people typically learnt to read music on their first instrument then went on to play another. I think the majority of musicians I know can play, or did play in the past, another instrument. Piano seems a popular initial one.

Unfortunately, the French Horn stuff is based on experience.......top tip, if you want to stay sane, DON'T try to learn the French Horn.

Edited September 24, 2019 by paul_c2

[greghagger]

45 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Possibly, but it might be true that most people who could read on ANY instrument, learnt on a previous instrument, if people typically learnt to read music on their first instrument then went on to play another. I think the majority of musicians I know can play, or did play in the past, another instrument. Piano seems a popular initial one.

Unfortunately, the French Horn stuff is based on experience.......top tip, if you want to stay sane, DON'T try to learn the French Horn.

How do you make a trombone sound like a French Horn?

Stick your hand in the bell and play out of tune!

I’ll get my coat......

[Bilbo]

There is only really one way to learn to read. Do it. A little each day. Start on single quarter notes, easy pieces,  move to eights the sixteenths, add rests as you go along. One bar, then two then fifty. Then just do it. A lot. It is not difficult to learn the principles of how to do it but it is something you have to keep doing and doing and doing again. It is also something that you will lose if you neglect it.

I am working on reading guitar parts at the moment as well as improving my bass clef sight reading. Luckily, I have just landed a big band gig so I am already seeing improvements just by needing to do it. You will see great progress simply by doing it for 20 minutes a day every day.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 24/09/2019 at 15:24, Twigman said:

I used to be able to read treble clef  - I am OK getting the pitch right but reading rhythm eludes me.

Bass clef is still a mystery to me ( I can never remember the stave).

Ha! I can read rhythms, but I can't do pitch. Not for the life of me and not for want of trying.

Started a very basic online course. First exercise, fine. Second one, diagram showing which notes are which and told to  'now learn these' 😫

Don't know what the blockage is, I've discovered I can sight-read tab if the music isn't too fast.

On 24/09/2019 at 20:13, greghagger said:

Coming from a background of piano and trumpet, I tend to agree with you.

Lots of famous bass players started on trumpet - Flea for one.

[caitlin]

I'm transferring over from drum clef and it's pretty confusing mixing up C with a floor tom, and all my hi-hats are sounding like As.

I've been playing from tab for ages and I've learned nothing except some robotic songs.

Now I'm taking lessons I'm actually taping over the tab in my books to force me to get the music notation. I'm heading for understanding chord relationships because more than anything I want to be able to make stuff up, not just slavishly play what's on the page.

I figure if i can read *other* musical parts (piano and that), I can then link up what I learn of bassing and make up stuff to match even if there isn't any bass music to copy or work off of.

[Stub Mandrel]

Carol 'Humility' Kaye on Bass Tab versus Sight Reading:
 

Quote

BTW, if you want to get off of reading tab and into the real world of reading music, my Bass I & II 2-video set, Music Reading Practice is the way to go....interesting, sort of fun to use and definitely gets you there very fast....tons of lines too in all styles, lots of studio musician reading tricks. Well, not really tricks but the correct easy approach. I dropped the antiquated 1-e-an-a ways of teaching music (counting etc.) and opted for this decades-proven system that all studio musicians use, honed it with years of successful bass teaching, and it works. So many out there tout "tab" which makes me laugh...as the ones who usually tout it, I've found, once I show them my system, they quickly discard it in favor of reading real music. Something like: you can speak words but why not be able to "read" them too like our language. I think it's always good to improve upon your skills and reading music is one way to find your real nettle of music, and be able to glean from the better books as well as the occasional chart you may have to read with a group. I can see chord diagrams for guitar players occasionally but this thumb-sucking tab (for one note at a time) is keeping ignorance in place.

Carol

 

[Davebassics]

I have been considering piano lessons to help me learn to read and generally improve my theory. This is with the aim of breaking through the walls that are stopping me from becoming a jazz bassist. Learning piano in my mind gives me a clean slate to learn from the beginning and hopefully be able to transfer those skills back to the bass.

I too taught myself at a young age by tabs. It's really limited me as my mind does not approach the bass in a way which I can improvise or play melodically. I see the bass as a paint by numbers instrument. I've came a long way and I am slowly picking up theory and reading (I'm only a hobbyist).  If I could start again, I would definitley have opted for lessons and reading .... providing i could inforce it on my 13 year old self!

[T-Bay]

I can read music but not fast enough to play by it, some techniques to speed that up would be very useful for many people I would think.

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, T-Bay said:

I can read music but not fast enough to play by it, some techniques to speed that up would be very useful for many people I would think.

I think that might be the biggest stumbling block for most people. I can read music in the same way  as I can read a few foreign languages, with context and a dictionary I can work my through it. I know what all the notes are and the timing divisions and all the commonly used symbols, but expect me to be able to play faster than a bar a minute and its just not going to happen for anything other than the simplest of pieces.

[greghagger]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I think that might be the biggest stumbling block for most people. I can read music in the same way  as I can read a few foreign languages, with context and a dictionary I can work my through it. I know what all the notes are and the timing divisions and all the commonly used symbols, but expect me to be able to play faster than a bar a minute and its just not going to happen for anything other than the simplest of pieces.

Thanks @BigRedX and @T-Bay this is definitely something to incorporate into the video course. Useful to hear your experiences. 

[Bilbo]

15 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I think that might be the biggest stumbling block for most people. I can read music in the same way  as I can read a few foreign languages, with context and a dictionary I can work my through it. I know what all the notes are and the timing divisions and all the commonly used symbols, but expect me to be able to play faster than a bar a minute and its just not going to happen for anything other than the simplest of pieces.

This is where you HAVE to start just DOING it. Every day. 20 - 30 minutes reading anything and everything. Start with something easy in C then F, G etc, adding one accidental every so often. It's a grind but it's the only way. 

[Richard R]

On 24/09/2019 at 15:24, Twigman said:

Bass clef is still a mystery to me ( I can never remember the stave).

"Good Bassists Do F*** All"

This works for me. But as my bass teacher said when he had stopped laughing,  it may not be suitable to tell an eleven year old girl whose mother is paying for the lessons.

Definitely a good idea to have such a course.