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1 minute ago, Geek99 said:

being unable to read music is having one hand tied behind your back

As any amputee will tell you there's a big difference between the tools you have to use and what you can achieve with them.

Written music is just one perspective on a piece of music. There's far far more to a performance than just a crude indication of note pitches, lengths and dynamics. With my pathetic work-it-out-one-note-at-a-time skills it's not difficult to see how totally inadequate a conventional score is for communicating, say, Led Zeppelin, songs - even supplemented by text annotations by Bonham and Page.

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13 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

There's far far more to a performance than just a crude indication of note pitches, lengths and dynamics.

Of course there is - but the note pitches, lengths and dynamics are important too. You're assuming that the ear-trained, non-reading musician can simply "get" the note pitches, lengths and dynamics, then their "ear-training" makes them superior at being able to apply all the other factors which make up a great performance - phrasing, timbre, etc. In my experience this isn't the case. Also, there is a MASSIVE time saving in being able to get those note pitches, lengths and dynamics quickly - building a base to add all those extra elements. People who can read can do it quicker, and those who can sight read can do it essentially "in real time", without needing to have heard the song before and possibly play it over and over again in their own time.

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38 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

As any amputee will tell you there's a big difference between the tools you have to use and what you can achieve with them.

Written music is just one perspective on a piece of music. There's far far more to a performance than just a crude indication of note pitches, lengths and dynamics. With my pathetic work-it-out-one-note-at-a-time skills it's not difficult to see how totally inadequate a conventional score is for communicating, say, Led Zeppelin, songs - even supplemented by text annotations by Bonham and Page.

Yes but amputation is final and there is no going back. it is a different situation 
 

Not  learning to read is different because you are voluntarily passing up on a method of communication, rather than being unable to communicate 

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35 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Of course there is - but the note pitches, lengths and dynamics are important too. You're assuming that the ear-trained, non-reading musician can simply "get" the note pitches, lengths and dynamics, then their "ear-training" makes them superior at being able to apply all the other factors which make up a great performance - phrasing, timbre, etc. In my experience this isn't the case. Also, there is a MASSIVE time saving in being able to get those note pitches, lengths and dynamics quickly - building a base to add all those extra elements. People who can read can do it quicker, and those who can sight read can do it essentially "in real time", without needing to have heard the song before and possibly play it over and over again in their own time.

You have got upon a very important point here. The ability to read music can save a lot of time. 

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16 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

Yes but amputation is final and there is no going back. it is a different situation 
 

Not  learning to read is different because you are voluntarily passing up on a method of communication, rather than being unable to communicate 

I agree, I have yet to find someone who reads music, say that it isn’t a worthy skill to have. 

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58 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

As any amputee will tell you there's a big difference between the tools you have to use and what you can achieve with them.

Written music is just one perspective on a piece of music. There's far far more to a performance than just a crude indication of note pitches, lengths and dynamics. With my pathetic work-it-out-one-note-at-a-time skills it's not difficult to see how totally inadequate a conventional score is for communicating, say, Led Zeppelin, songs - even supplemented by text annotations by Bonham and Page.

Hmmmm, not sure about this really. Written music can contain a lot of subtleties, and properly written music is far from crude. 

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19 minutes ago, greghagger said:

You have got upon a very important point here. The ability to read music can save a lot of time. 

But only if the music you want to play is written down.

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49 minutes ago, greghagger said:

I agree, I have yet to find someone who reads music, say that it isn’t a worthy skill to have. 

It may be a worthy skill but I'm convinced it would be of little value in my band.

We communicate ideas by playing them to each other, yes we'll tell each other what key something might be in or as is more likely they'll ask me as they won't know (even their own ideas)......the conventions of music theory are not at the forefront of our minds, the overall aural effect is.

Edited by Twigman

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28 minutes ago, Twigman said:

It may be a worthy skill but I'm convinced it would be of little value in my band.

We communicate ideas by playing them to each other, yes we'll tell each other what key something might be in or as is more likely they'll ask me as they won't know (even their own ideas)......the conventions of music theory are not at the forefront of our minds, the overall aural affect is.

Which is fair enough - if you don't see its value, then nobody is forcing you to try learn to read music.

In a broader sense though, my advice to an aspiring learning bassist would be to learn to read music, because it will give more opportunities in the future, possibly in genres of music you haven't really considered.

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2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

The main challenge for ANY song is not how to play it, it's  agreeing how to end it!

My main band job is actually FOH sound engineer. Mute buttons or faders down will end any song, no problem. 

I have yet to see any form of standard notation for FOH. "Piano up a bit in this section", "Nice bass riff in two bars time, duck the keyboards " That sort of thing. 

Edited by Richard R
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5 minutes ago, Richard R said:

My main band job is actually FOH sound engineer. Mute buttons or faders down will end any song, no problem. 

I have yet to see any form of standard notation for FOH. "Piano up a bit in this section", "Nice bass riff in two bars time, duck the keyboards " That sort of thing. 

INVENT THIS NOTATION. I have always maintained that sound engineer is intrinsic part of band for BEST effect and whatnot... what if there was a way to help whoever's riding the faders keep up with the changes.

Surely theatre has this covered for scene changes and so forth? annotated scripts.

Music is so haphazard, too many times choosing the set list backstage.

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2 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

You're assuming that the ear-trained, non-reading musician can simply "get" the note pitches, lengths and dynamics, then their "ear-training" makes them superior at being able to apply all the other factors which make up a great performance - phrasing, timbre, etc.

No, I'm just saying there are things you can't notate, but I would also observe there are various other ways to get what notation passes on; not least well-written tab, although it struggles with the same issues as notation.

Any form of written music is like written poetry, it doesn't come to life until spoken, even if it's in your head.

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2 hours ago, Geek99 said:

Not  learning to read is different because you are voluntarily passing up on a method of communication, rather than being unable to communicate 

What's voluntary about it?

If anyone here can actually help me learn to sight read, I'll gladly accept their help.

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1 hour ago, greghagger said:

Hmmmm, not sure about this really. Written music can contain a lot of subtleties, and properly written music is far from crude. 

Examples are grace notes and triplets, but grace notes are fairly crude and not many triplets are three equal subdivisions of a note in real life.

Don't get me wrong, musical notation is excellent and efficient and it must be great to be able to read it. Lesser ebings like me make the best they can of tab or other alternatives.

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37 minutes ago, Richard R said:

My main band job is actually FOH sound engineer. Mute buttons or faders down will end any song, no problem. 

I have yet to see any form of standard notation for FOH. "Piano up a bit in this section", "Nice bass riff in two bars time, duck the keyboards " That sort of thing. 

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You have now, that's a score annotated by Bernstein. Assuming what a conductor does is essentially the same thing.

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15 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Examples are grace notes and triplets, but grace notes are fairly crude and not many triplets are three equal subdivisions of a note in real life.

Don't get me wrong, musical notation is excellent and efficient and it must be great to be able to read it. Lesser ebings like me make the best they can of tab or other alternatives.

A triplet is normally an equal sub-division if 3 notes across 2 beats. It’s is easy to notate and communicate through written music. 

Written music is an excellent guide, but good players can still add feel and interpret the part how they wish. There is room for that when you read music. That’s where experience and a good ear really completes the picture. 

Of course though, some players might have a narrow field of music, and not need to read music. 

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59 minutes ago, Richard R said:

My main band job is actually FOH sound engineer. Mute buttons or faders down will end any song, no problem. 

I have yet to see any form of standard notation for FOH. "Piano up a bit in this section", "Nice bass riff in two bars time, duck the keyboards " That sort of thing. 

Try speaking to theatre FOH guys, they read music, as do the technical crew who call the show.

its a necessary skill for them.  

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1 hour ago, greghagger said:

Try speaking to theatre FOH guys, they read music, as do the technical crew who call the show.

its a necessary skill for them.  

Totally agree.  To continue further, maybe not all read music, but many have a copy of the script and make notes about who comes in where, which effects get played when - basically anything they want. I have done a few theatre shows in my time and the script was vital to remember everything. 

I have also done FOH on many band gigs and had notes written on a copy of a set list - I.e. which effect number to dial in for a certain song, remember to turn guitar mic 1 off in that one etc.  I worked in a venue mainly, so didn't really get to know bands well enough to write scripts - that was probably the "playing by ear" analogy.

I don't think there is anything new to be invented here, although you youngsters probably have it all stored in a digital desk now....

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2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

What's voluntary about it?

If anyone here can actually help me learn to sight read, I'll gladly accept their help.

You could teach yourself - it’s not hard 

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1 minute ago, Geek99 said:

You could teach yourself - it’s not hard 

To be honest, I started this thread to see if there was a need, and the interest in a reading music video course. It appears there definitely is!  

I have already started the making the course, and I’ll post any more details as I progress. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

You could teach yourself - it’s not hard 

I hope this is true, it's just like anything else you can practise. start slow, speed up. "sight reading" is just being able to read faster than the music is proceeding, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, Huge Hands said:

..you youngsters probably have it all stored in a digital desk now....

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 On Saturday I drove to Luton from the Midlands with the rest of our sound crew. The youngest was 40 last week, the rest are over 50 and one insisted we stop on the way for a comfort break. We were going to look at a digital desk mind.

I scribble all over the order of service, but it's not exactly standardised. 

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I have started learning to read music and it's taking me an awfully long time but I am progressing. 

I realise that scribbled notes, tab, homemafe e formulas for saving ideas, recordings etc were all attempts to do something better done by writing and reading music. 

I don't want to relearn a song if I've not played it for yonks. I want to pull up the score and get it down again really fast. 

Also learning anything is immensely satisfying and rewarding, and anything to do with music doubly so for me. 

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Just wish I could afford to pay someone to teach me. I work so much better to a deadline. Knowing someone is waiting to see if I'd done my homework or not is a great incentive 

Edited by stewblack
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9 hours ago, stewblack said:

Just wish I could afford to pay someone to teach me. I work so much better to a deadline. Knowing someone is waiting to see if I'd done my homework or not is a great incentive 

To be honest 

my first though was “you lazy ...” but then i thought about it a bit more. Back in 2001 i wanted to get certified in java nd i struggled in motivation. In th send i booked the test to give me an end goal. Then i got out a calendar nd allocated a topic to each day, with revision days. You don’t need someone else to organise you.

ad i passed...

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