Drummers who keep changing the beat during the song

[Stylon Pilson]

Who are you and what are you doing in my kitchen?

S.P.

[chris_b]

Everyone in the band should be aware of everyone else on stage and eye contact is important throughout a gig but the guys in the band shouldn't be looking at each other in order to aid their playing!

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Dad3353]

15 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Everyone in the band should be aware of everyone else on stage and eye contact is important throughout a gig but the guys in the band shouldn't be looking at each other in order to aid their playing!

That seems a bit harsh and 'dry', to me. Listening is critical, but so is 'reading' the mood of the other musicians, by whatever means. Even seeing someone smile (or frown..?) at something going down is part of how and what one plays, as far as I'm concerned. It's possible to play in a 'vacuum', but better if all are contributing to the song with all of their senses, in my view. I'm not a machine. 

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[chris_b]

12 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

That seems a bit harsh and 'dry', to me. Listening is critical, but so is 'reading' the mood of the other musicians, by whatever means. Even seeing someone smile (or frown..?) at something going down is part of how and what one plays, as far as I'm concerned. It's possible to play in a 'vacuum', but better if all are contributing to the song with all of their senses, in my view. I'm not a machine. 

So, I guess my "aware" is your "reading the mood"?

Communication is key but watching each other shouldn't part of what we are do. I know not many of us are going to gig at the Pyramid stage or a stadium any time soon, but those guys are focussed on the audience. They are rehearsed to the eye-balls and tooled up for it. They are hearing every nuance and are "aware" but their focus goes only one way.

Edited August 6, 2018 by chris_b

[Dad3353]

53 minutes ago, chris_b said:

So, I guess my "aware" is your "reading the mood"?

Communication is key but watching each other shouldn't part of what we are do. I know not many of us are going to gig at the Pyramid stage or a stadium any time soon, but those guys are focussed on the audience. They are rehearsed to the eye-balls and tooled up for it. They are hearing every nuance and are "aware" but their focus goes only one way.

There is no contradiction from me in saying that not all music is focused on the audience. I'd even suggest that most music is played with no audience present at all, if we include rehearsal and studio work. Yes, being 'aware' (sounds too much like Van Damme to me, but that's just me...) is what it's about, and, to me, communicating is the name of the game, and the whole point of playing, mostly. I would agree that one should not be dependant on any one partner, but building complicity is a huge advantage in many genres (I would hope, all genres, but 'shoegaze' may be an exception..!). I don't think we're at loggerheads, just using different terms for nuances of much the same thing. However, I, for one, get much more pleasure, myself, and 'play' that pleasure back into the mix, when I know that all the other players are in the same 'moment'. Indeed, even when practising alone, I'll try to imagine transmitting emotion, events, feeling... in what I'm playing.

[Monkey Steve]

The two best drummers I've ever played with were opposite ends of how they interacted with me.

For one, who I've been in bands with since we were teenagers, we know how each other plays, and how to communicate with each other during a song (a mixture of eye contact, sometimes speaking or mouthing an instruction, sometimes with playing cues, and sometimes just with a massive grin as one of us (usually him) does something a little unexpected to deliberately make things, ahem, interesting and see if the other one can follow - not often done during a gig, unless the mood was appropriate).  Very easy to read the room with him and make changes in dynamics to suit how things are going.

The other, who I would say is technically a better drummer, had none of the communication skills - no eye contact, no talking or playing cues, so no way to read the room and vary things during a gig.  However, he will play exactly as expected every single time, so as long as the song dynamics have been properly worked out in advance, you know exactly what to expect.  All the work is done in the rehearsal room, and when you get to the gig the drums are set in stone.

I personally prefer #1, who allows for a bit of variety if the occasion demands (and would not do so if the occasion did not) but I've never had a problem with #2

Back to the OP, if there have ever been any issues - something that doesn't work live or something that could be done better, with these two it's always been taken back to the next rehearsal.  Depending on the mood sometimes it's a full post mortem of what went wrong at the gig, sometimes it's a gentle "I think we could do that better, let's try it like this..."  In the OP's case, I'd suggest it needs to be the full post mortem, and proper talking to explaining that he cannot do it any more

Edited August 6, 2018 by Monkey Steve

[tedmanzie]

I don’t think many people have so far suggested just having a simple conversation with the drummer - between gigs, sit down and have a heart to heart with him about what you think, he may have some thoughts about what he wants too. Maybe tape the latest gig and show him where it’s not working. Book a rehearsal for just you & him maybe? Ideally you want to both come out stronger and happier - a look or a few curt words are likely to achieve the opposite.

i’m not in a band but as an audience member, unless it’s jazz I can’t stand drummers who fiddle around with tricksy bits, I particularly can’t bear that thing where they wreck a straight high hat pattern with triplet/3 bits (don’t know what it is to be honest but it’s pretty common and it’s rubbish!) 😆

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by tedmanzie

[discreet]

41 minutes ago, tedmanzie said:

Maybe tape the latest gig and show him where it’s not working...

Or a rehearsal. Recordings are good for highlighting a problem - it usually becomes obvious. However if it's not obvious to the, ah... perpetrator, it may have to be 'you are the weakest link - goodbye'.

[Maude]

5 hours ago, discreet said:

Or a rehearsal. Recordings are good for highlighting a problem - it usually becomes obvious. However if it's not obvious to the, ah... perpetrator, it may have to be 'you are the weakest link - goodbye'.

Recordings are good for highlighting problems you never knew existed as well. In the moment everything seem bang on the money but sometimes when played back you go, "ooh I never realised I did that". 

[Yank]

I started as a singing drummer.  Have learned to play and gigged on guitar, harmonica and bass and have taught these instruments.  When teaching young drummers,  I would first concentrate on them learning to play grooves and would have them play along to recordings,  keeping the beat steady,  not slowing down or speeding up.  Some have a hard time with this.  When I moved on to fills,  some would have a hard time coming back on the "one",  because a 4/4, alternating , bass drum-snare-bass drum-snare to a drummer who isn't just concentrating on himself (or herself) is the same as a snare-bass drum-snare- bass drum.  As a singer,  I was also always aware of the form of a song,  whereas non-singing drummers have to be made aware of the difference between verses and chorus.  Part of teaching drummers should be for them to not only become proficient as a drummer,  but help them become musicians,  thinking about the song,  listening to the other musicians and fulfilling their role in the mix.  Please try to help this drummer in his journey.  If he refuses to be helped,  help yourself and sack him.  There ARE musicians out there who are drummers.  When you're walking and have a pebble in your shoe you'd be foolish not to stop and remove it.  

[Zalastar]

As en ex drummer I would say definitely discuss it. I was never a fiddly drummer, not one for big fills or fancy little pick ups etc.. I did however always have a lot of anxiety about my playing being too simple, too 'stick to the beat and don't get flash'. If somebody had told me to keep it simple and not over egg things I'd probably have been a lot more relaxed. I do however suspect my old bass player was probably on a forum somewhere saying "my drummer is sooooooo borrrriiiiinnggggg, should I get him sacked?" 😀

[Monkey Steve]

3 hours ago, Yank said:

As a singer,  I was also always aware of the form of a song,  whereas non-singing drummers have to be made aware of the difference between verses and chorus.  Part of teaching drummers should be for them to not only become proficient as a drummer,  but help them become musicians,  thinking about the song,  listening to the other musicians and fulfilling their role in the mix.  Please try to help this drummer in his journey.  If he refuses to be helped,  help yourself and sack him.  There ARE musicians out there who are drummers.  When you're walking and have a pebble in your shoe you'd be foolish not to stop and remove it.  

I've played with a few musicians who have this sort of "song blindness" before - typically singers who can't follow cues, but there has been the odd drummer who can't follow the changes and rather than play something neutral until they can pick up the tune, will instead put in the expected fills or changes at the wrong place because they know it's coming and it might be then...

Not sure it's the same as the OP's issue, which sounds much more like the drummer is bored and playing something unexpected in order to keep himself amused, rather than him missing a change.

I think we're all getting to the same point - the OP needs to have a chat with him to point it out, and then see how he reacts.  I'd suggest getting the rest of the band on side first

[discreet]

10 minutes ago, Zalastar said:

I do however suspect my old bass player was probably on a forum somewhere saying "my drummer is sooooooo borrrriiiiinnggggg, should I get him sacked?" 😀

On the other hand he may have been saying exactly the opposite. I'd take a solid, workmanlike drummer who can play in time over some idiot who tries to be flash and sounds like a cutlery drawer falling down an escalator any day of the week.

[Zalastar]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

I think we're all getting to the same point - the OP needs to have a chat with him to point it out, and then see how he reacts.  I'd suggest getting the rest of the band on side first

But be nice, drummers are sensitive little souls who need a little ego stroking now and again, that's why we are happy to sit at the back behind a load of cymbals 😁

5 minutes ago, discreet said:

On the other hand he may have been saying exactly the opposite. I'd take a solid, workmanlike drummer who can play in time over some idiot who tries to be flash and sounds like a cutlery drawer falling down an escalator any day of the week.

Now I never said I didn't also sound like a cutlery drawer falling down an escalator 😉

[uk_lefty]

5 hours ago, Yank said:

  As a singer,  I was also always aware of the form of a song,  whereas non-singing drummers have to be made aware of the difference between verses and chorus. 

My drummer doesn't sing but he listens to the vocal for cues, rather than guitar or bass... Or counting the bars! I work this way too, so he and I both mess up together

Playing with a drummer who just plays the same pattern without leading the band in to a change is infuriating.

[Stylon Pilson]

Just now, uk_lefty said:

Playing with a drummer who just plays the same pattern without leading the band in to a change is infuriating.

This is so true. I've recently joined a band (covers) and am able to get up to speed on the song structures really quickly because the drummer is telegraphing the changes to me.

S.P.

[discreet]

25 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

...am able to get up to speed on the song structures really quickly because the drummer is telegraphing the changes to me...

Makes all the difference. I've played with lazy drummers who just 'play along' rather than be instrumental in creating the time and leading the groove (if you know what I mean). These are wannabe, deluded passengers who make life more difficult than it needs to be, and I want to punch them!

[KevB]

Yeah, drummer in the latest band (not sure how long I'll last, they don't seem very professional) is not too bad at putting a fill in or changeing the rhythm to point out a change or end of a solo. What is doing my head in is his apparent inability to play anything less than about 20% quicker than the version we are working from, making some songs sound horribly rushed. I finally had enough half way through one song a couple of rehearsals back and just stopped and got them all starting at sensible tempo.

[discreet]

13 minutes ago, KevB said:

I finally had enough half way through one song a couple of rehearsals back and just stopped and got them all starting at sensible tempo.

You should do that more often. They just dont know! We tend to play slower at rehearsal, knowing full well that adreniline will kick in at gigs and speed everything up...

Edited August 7, 2018 by discreet

[KevB]

That's partly what is worrying me, when we eventually get round to my first gig with them in a few weeks I might not be able to play the basslines properly if it gets any faster, especially those I'm also providing some backing on with midi pedals.

Edited August 7, 2018 by KevB

[discreet]

1 minute ago, KevB said:

That's partly what is worrying me, when we eventually get round to my first gig with them in a few weeks I might not be able to play the basslines properly if it gets any faster, especially those I'm also providing some backing on with midi pedals.

You can put the brakes on through your playing up to a point, but pushing and pulling a drummer who is less than metronomic is no fun at all and turns what should be a pleasure into a tedious chore. But on the bright side, some of them do get the idea eventually. Maybe have a word about It?