Conspiracies aside, which do you prefer?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1493968416' post='3292156']
The trouble with the purely mathematical approach above, is that, unless you build all of the factors into the equations, it misses out all of the other factors relating to string tension and harmonics and soundboard resonance and harmonics within the soundboard etc, etc, etc.

[/quote]

Quite so: broadly speaking I agree with what you've said. However I left that kind of stuff out so as not to overcomplicate the situation.

[spoiler]IME, giving hard sums to the average BC member can be a bit of a risky business; people have a tendency to either switch off or take the piss (no offence intended to the BC collective, either collectively or individually; just a personal observation drawn from personal experience)[/spoiler]

Thing is, we're talking about an idealised - some would even say contrived - situation here. In everyday music making nobody in their right mind compares pitches in this way: you just tune up and play. The precise pitching of the notes and the various characteristics of the instruments are neither here nor there as long as everybody sounds in tune. In an idealised situation, however, the Mathematics is entirely appropriate.

On a personal note I would respectfully suggest that the preference for 432 over 440 probably has as much to do with mystical 'insight' as it does with musical nuance. Still, if it floats yer boat then knock yerself out.

Edited May 5, 2017 by leftybassman392

[Dad3353]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1493965450' post='3292129']
D? Aren't I right in saying that drums are tuned just the same as all instruments?...
[/quote]

Yes, indeed, and that tuning is very important (I'd even say 'critical'...), but the methods are very different, as there are many differing results obtainable. Here's the gen; the Drum Tuning Bible, downloadable as a Pdf file...

[url="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjA59_MuNjTAhXDvxQKHfVDD3cQFggzMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcircularscience.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2FDrum-tuning-bible.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHg-ojdvmuKChZArGt3UnAAYK9C7Q"]Drum Tuning Bible ...[/url]

Doesn't apply to cymbals, of course; they have to be chosen carefully, too, to sound musically compatible with the kit and between themselves, but cannot be altered after manufacture (although 'pitch' can be altered, as an effect, by dipping in water whilst playing, for instance..!).
All the 'secrets' are in the Bible; there's no better available, in my view. Essential knowledge for all drummers and drum techs.

[lowdown]

^^^
Oh Lordy.
What sticks do you use ?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1493978503' post='3292279']
What sticks do you use ?
[/quote]

ProMark, Japanese Shira Kashi pw747n, White Oak 747, Nylon Tip

... although 5A will do, too (slightly less long, and a tad less heavy...). The important bit is the Japanese Oak, which is extremely hard-wearing, and provides an excellent cross-sticking 'ring'. No hickory; I'm not a hard hitter, by any means, but I've had far too many wear out to use them any more. Not fond at all of Vic Forth, either. Yes, a nylon tip, too, for clear cymbals, especially hi-hat definition. Simples, really.
Brushes and Hotrods, too, of course, depending on repertoire. Non-retractable nylon, for brushes, Hot rods..? Not fussy, they're all much of a muchness, I find. Hope this helps.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dad3353

[lowdown]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1493979111' post='3292286']


ProMark, Japanese Shira Kashi pw747n, White Oak 747, Nylon Tip

... although 5A will do, too (slightly less long, and a tad less heavy...). The important bit is the Japanese Oak, which is extremely hard-wearing, and provides an excellent cross-sticking 'ring'. No hickory; I'm not a hard hitter, by any means, but I've had far too many wear out to use them any more. Not fond at all of Vic Forth, either. Yes, a nylon tip, too, for clear cymbals, especially hi-hat definition. Simples, really.
Brushes and Hotrods, too, of course, depending on repertoire. Non-retractable nylon, for brushes, Hot rods..? Not fussy, they're all much of a muchness, I find. Hope this helps.
[/quote]



Excellent.
I presumethe 'pw747n' are designed for hitting Drums that are tuned at A432 ?


EDIT. Sorry, I don't mean tuned by the side of the A 432, but, A=432.

Edited May 5, 2017 by lowdown

[Dad3353]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1493979789' post='3292293']
Excellent...
[/quote]

Now look here, I don't create the reference of the sticks I use, I just buy 'em and hit drums..! I wuz axed wot sticks, I replied thus. Did I screw up somewhere..? As fer reference tones for pitch: the notion of Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind...

[media]http://youtu.be/G55Oq3oBls0[/media]

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dad3353

[lowdown]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1493980951' post='3292312']

[media]http://youtu.be/G55Oq3oBls0[/media]


[/quote]

.

On another note, I love that 'Galloping' arrangement. Top stuff.

[Dad3353]

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1493977307' post='3292254']
Yes, indeed, and that tuning is very important (I'd even say 'critical'...), but the methods are very different, as there are many differing results obtainable. Here's the gen; the Drum Tuning Bible, downloadable as a Pdf file...

[url="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjA59_MuNjTAhXDvxQKHfVDD3cQFggzMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcircularscience.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2FDrum-tuning-bible.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHg-ojdvmuKChZArGt3UnAAYK9C7Q"]Drum Tuning Bible ...[/url]

Doesn't apply to cymbals, of course; they have to be chosen carefully, too, to sound musically compatible with the kit and between themselves, but cannot be altered after manufacture (although 'pitch' can be altered, as an effect, by dipping in water whilst playing, for instance..!).
All the 'secrets' are in the Bible; there's no better available, in my view. Essential knowledge for all drummers and drum techs.
[/quote]

Many thanks. Can you now do us a similar back to back comparison on drums using the same bench marks as with the OP's clip? Nah, only kidding. I do wonder about how noticeable it is for different parts of the audible range however.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1493987076' post='3292391']
Many thanks. Can you now do us a similar back to back comparison on drums using the same bench marks as with the OP's clip? Nah, only kidding. I do wonder about how noticeable it is for different parts of the audible range however.
[/quote]

Sorry, no can do. I systematically remove bench marks. A wipe with a damp cloth for the most part, but can go as far as using a plane to get out the real gouges. OCD..? Nah, just fussy about keeping my bench neat and tidy. T'was a nice idea, though.

[SpondonBassed]

Hahahahahaha

[JoeEvans]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1493971897' post='3292191']
Does such a thing as "perfect pitch" exist? If so, what percentage of the population has it?
[/quote]
No idea about percentage of the population but I've witnessed it in action; I used to play with a violinist who would just tune up to thin air, as it were, but would always then be perfectly in tune with my accordion. If someone played a note he could not only say what note it was but whether it was in tune with concert pitch (A=440hz).
Presumably his inner 440 reference point came from having played in lots of bands with fixed-pitch instruments.
On another note, the whole idea of Hz is based on the length of a second, which is a completely arbitrary and human measure. I would find it a great coincidence if the resonant frequency of the universe (or whatever) happened to be an exact round number when compared to the duration of one rotation of our planet divided by 24, then by 60, then by 60 again.
And in fact, if you look at it like that, why 432Hz precisely? Why not 432.5739390284732Hz or some other frequency that isn't a nice round number when you measure it using our local and historic time unit?

Edited May 5, 2017 by JoeEvans

[Rocker]

The maths argument in the video makes no sense to me. It is of no relevance to a musician as string tunings are relative to a standard, whatever it is. If I were to build a synth, the maths might come into consideration but apart from that, totally irrelevant. Even the rotation of the earth around the Sun is not a whole number......

[miles'tone]

OP here..
I agree that the maths/earth/chakra bollocks is, well exactly that. I can hear a difference between the two examples though and prefer the one called 432 simply because it sounded better to me.
I also used to get frustrated by some of my old band members when I'd come in with a new piece in F# for example and they would say, "let's play it in G, it's easier to play it that way." I'd say but it sounds different in G, not as good. They'd insist it was the same and that it didn't matter.
I don't think I have perfect pitch but I can certainly sense an emotional difference between different keys for some reason though.

I took a quick perfect pitch test today and although I got about half wrong, the ones I did get right easily enough were at 415Hz - baroque tuning. Never heard of that before but it does suggest that I prefer my tones a bit lower than regular 440Hz concert pitch.
Great, something new to geek out on! 🙃

Edited May 6, 2017 by miles'tone

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='miles'tone' timestamp='1494021638' post='3292742']
...I took a quick perfect pitch test today and although I got about half wrong, the ones I did get right easily enough were at 415Hz - [size=6]baroque tuning[/size]. Never heard of that before but it does suggest that I prefer my tones a bit lower than regular 440Hz concert pitch.
Great, something new to geek out on!
[/quote]

Then I should try and get a gig or two out of this lot if I were you...
https://www.facebook.com/baroquebath

[Bolo]

440 is clearly superior to all your lesser tunings. Accept no lower pitch!

[Dapper Bandit]

They sound different for sure, they are different tunings after all. Having had a conversation with another musician at work about this very video which involved the immortal line "Hitler invented 440 standard tuning because the higher pitch made everyone that heard it anxious. Because they were anxious he could redirect all their negative energy into starting WWII" I'm kind of worn out on the whole debate.

Use what sounds good. Surely you could tune to D standard and then everything would sound twice as better because you're tuned even lower?

[ambient]

[quote name='miles'tone' timestamp='1494021638' post='3292742']
OP here..
I agree that the maths/earth/chakra bollocks is, well exactly that. I can hear a difference between the two examples though and prefer the one called 432 simply because it sounded better to me.
I also used to get frustrated by some of my old band members when I'd come in with a new piece in F# for example and they would say, "let's play it in G, it's easier to play it that way." I'd say but it sounds different in G, not as good. They'd insist it was the same and that it didn't matter.
I don't think I have perfect pitch but I can certainly sense an emotional difference between different keys for some reason though.

I took a quick perfect pitch test today and although I got about half wrong, the ones I did get right easily enough were at 415Hz - baroque tuning. Never heard of that before but it does suggest that I prefer my tones a bit lower than regular 440Hz concert pitch.
Great, something new to geek out on! 🙃
[/quote]

Some songs definitely do sound better in certain keys.

Maybe check out the Solfeggio frequencies too.

[miles'tone]

[quote name='Dapper Bandit' timestamp='1494330106' post='3294995']


Use what sounds good. Surely you could tune to D standard and then everything would sound twice as better because you're tuned even lower?
[/quote]
I actually tune down to C standard. Sounds great down there, much more useful I find.

[pfretrock]

Radio 3 Late Junction, next week. Unequal temperaments, alternate tuning.

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q2rxv"]BBC Radio 3 - Late Junction, Verity Sharp with Unequal Temperaments[/url]

[SubsonicSimpleton]

A440 is a convenient standard, IMHO you can vary the tone of a stringed instrument quite a bit by changing it's tuning, but it's highly subjective and depends on the music you are making. My old nylon strung classical guitar sounds a lot better tuned a bit sharp from A440, whereas my steel strung acoustic likes slack tuning - definately worth experimenting with from one instrument to another.

[miles'tone]

[quote name='pfretrock' timestamp='1494498563' post='3296472']
Radio 3 Late Junction, next week. Unequal temperaments, alternate tuning.

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q2rxv"]BBC Radio 3 - Late Junction, Verity Sharp with Unequal Temperaments[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for that, will check it out this evening.

Although I stated earlier that changing the pitch (not tempo) of an already recorded tune kind of fakes the artists original performance, I'm going to completely contradict myself and say that this one works very well.
Night time and good headphones required..

http://youtu.be/ScKBnFaVIoI

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='miles'tone' timestamp='1494021638' post='3292742']
OP here..
I agree that the maths/earth/chakra bollocks is, well exactly that. I can hear a difference between the two examples though and prefer the one called 432 simply because it sounded better to me.
[/quote]

The video is fix - of course you will prefer the first one you hear because your ear homes in on that as its reference and will always hear the second one out of tune.

When I've had to learn some songs on older recordings that were recorded somewhere off of concert pitch, I've always used an pitch shift program to retune them (e.g. amazing slowdowner) and never been able to distinguish the any difference between them.