Finger speed...

[agroupuk]

Hey all,

Sorry to bother you (but thanks for reading this)

I have been playing bass now for about 6 months and have been playing exclusively with finger rather than picks.
Problem is I have hit a barrier with finger speed when plucking. I now have moved on to using a pick for songs I find too fast for me.

I can use 1 finger (and pretty quick with it I am) but when I move to use 2 I find that I mis-time with the second finger OR I do a 1 beat with my first finger and then 2 beats with the next then back to the first (if that makes sense) and yet I am still not consistent nor as fast as with my single finger. Theoretically I SHOULD be twice as fast.....

So, basically is there a technique for training your fingers to work at speed and in rhythm or do I just practice, practice, practice?

Any help apreciated.



Thanks,

Edd

[Bilbo]

Nothing crazy, agroupuk, just practice. One finger after the other and repeat 1,000,000 times and you'll have it. It's not rocket science, just incremental. No easy fix, just time.

[The Funk]

[quote name='agroupuk' post='306288' date='Oct 14 2008, 02:58 PM']So, basically is there a technique for training your fingers to work at speed and in rhythm or do I just practice, practice, practice?[/quote]

The technique for training your fingers to work at speed and in rhythm IS to just practice, practice, practice.

[mcgraham]

Don't lie, you just don't want him to find out about the secret yet simple technique that [i]you[/i] use to help you play quickly in next to no time at all...

I'm joking of course, that's a +1 from me. There a few things worth remembering though, at least they helped me in building up speed:
1) use a metronome and start slow with some basic exercises that hit all bases such as single string playing, string skipping/crossing etc, e.g. Hanon piano exercises (a collection of exercises intended for piano) are simple but highly effective. I can send you a copy if you wish, just PM your email address.
2) ensure you practice efficiently, whether you play fast or slow you should be playing in the same way, i.e. constantly/frequently re-evaluate your playing technique and root out/address issues that are limiting your technique (e.g. a bent wrist making things hurt/hard to move, anchoring your thumb instead of having a floating/sliding thumb making it hard to skip strings etc)
3) minimise extra/unnecessary motion as much as possible, for example, as you pluck a note with your index, the middle finger should be moved to rest on the string to be played next (and vice versa) ready to pluck the next note (as the first is being plucked) so as to minimise time between plucks. Does that make sense? A low(er) action helps too, and I find rest strokes and raking helps for efficiency.
4) stay relaxed at all times, you shouldn't have unnecessary tension in your wrist or arms (VERY IMPORTANT!)

There are lots of tips that could be given but these basic ones helped me greatly.

Mark

[birdy]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='306318' date='Oct 14 2008, 03:38 PM']Don't lie, you just don't want him to find out about the secret yet simple technique that [i]you[/i] use to help you play quickly in next to no time at all...

I'm joking of course, that's a +1 from me. There a few things worth remembering though, at least they helped me in building up speed:
1) use a metronome and start slow with some basic exercises that hit all bases such as single string playing, string skipping/crossing etc, e.g. Hanon piano exercises (a collection of exercises intended for piano) are simple but highly effective. I can send you a copy if you wish, just PM your email address.
2) ensure you practice efficiently, whether you play fast or slow you should be playing in the same way, i.e. constantly/frequently re-evaluate your playing technique and root out/address issues that are limiting your technique (e.g. a bent wrist making things hurt/hard to move, anchoring your thumb instead of having a floating/sliding thumb making it hard to skip strings etc)
3) minimise extra/unnecessary motion as much as possible, for example, as you pluck a note with your index, the middle finger should be moved to rest on the string to be played next (and vice versa) ready to pluck the next note (as the first is being plucked) so as to minimise time between plucks. Does that make sense? A low(er) action helps too, and I find rest strokes and raking helps for efficiency.
4) stay relaxed at all times, you shouldn't have unnecessary tension in your wrist or arms (VERY IMPORTANT!)

There are lots of tips that could be given but these basic ones helped me greatly.

Mark[/quote]

All Great advice - PM sent for Hanon Piano Exercises if possible. Sound very useful.

Steve

[mcgraham]

Sent to those who asked for it.

Feel free to ask for a copy those who may be interested. I have a standard email with the Hanon docs attached + instructions/advice to help make good use of it that I can easily send out, no trouble at all.

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='306318' date='Oct 14 2008, 03:38 PM']Don't lie, you just don't want him to find out about the secret yet simple technique that [i]you[/i] use to help you play quickly in next to no time at all...[/quote]

Play 3 sets a night, two nights in a row every now and then. You won't be able to play at all on the third day but after that your top speed will have almost doubled.

But if you don't practice, practice, practice, your wrists will never be the same again. Be warned!

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='306318' date='Oct 14 2008, 03:38 PM']2) ensure you practice efficiently, whether you play fast or slow you should be playing in the same way, i.e. constantly/frequently re-evaluate your playing technique and root out/address issues that are limiting your technique (e.g. a bent wrist making things hurt/hard to move, anchoring your thumb instead of having a floating/sliding thumb making it hard to skip strings etc)[/quote]

Could you please describe in more detail what "anchoring your thumb" is?

[mcgraham]

Anchoring your thumb is where you place your thumb in fairly secure/rigid contact with some part of the bass, be it the top edge of a pickup constantly (i.e. [i]never[/i] moving it) or moving between low B string and pickup, or anchored on some string below the one you're playing (i.e. rigidly anchored until you skip strings).

A floating thumb, or perhaps a better way to explain the mechanism is to call it a sliding thumb, involves resting the side of your thumb across the strings. It's very very relaxed so that it acts just like a 'bit of flesh' that lies across the strings, thus muting them. You then simply slide your hand across the strings to move between strings, the side of your thumb muting any strings below the tip of your thumb, i.e. any strings below the one you're playing.

If you anchor you will find that a) you have to find a place to anchor and lock in; b ) you have introduced more tension than less; c) when you want to move up or down one or more strings you have opposition as you're essentially pressing against something, thus preventing easy motion; and therefore d) you have to pull your hand/thumb away from the bass to 'break' the anchor, then repeat the cycle. I consider this to be highly inefficient.

If you use floating/sliding thumb you will find that a) the sheer sense of your thumb against the strings is enough to tell you where you are and feel 'secure'; b ) you are very very relaxed; c) when you want to move up or down one or more strings there is NO opposition as you are not pressing against anything, thus enabling easy motion; and therefore d) you can simply slide along the string courses when playing, there is no cycle to repeat, just ease of motion. I consider this to be highly efficient.

You don't lose 'needed' strength because strength isn't needed, a controlled light touch is all that is necessary to play fast; muscle memory is not a problem, as you develop (IMO) more versatile muscle memory due to the slight variations in held hand position when using floating thumb. Sorry for the long explanation, I thought it'd be better to give a complete picture rather than leave anything hanging.

Mark

Edited October 15, 2008 by mcgraham

[P-T-P]

Practice for sure is the only real answer.

How you practice though will make a difference. Start off slow and focused on getting your technique correct (both in terms of hand position and also, of course, getting the alternating finger thing working). Concentrate on making sure you've got even note lengths and that you aren't cutting notes short in the urgency to get to the next one.

If you can, try to get to a situation where there's as little audible difference between notes struck with different fingers - in terms of both tone and volume. Try working your fingers both ways - i.e. start with your index finger on 'one' and then do the exercise again with your middle finger on 'one' - it can be easy to subconciously accent all the notes played by one or other finger if you always start with the same one. smoothness and consistency are the goal here.

Get all those things sorted and working, ideally use a metronome at say 60 bpm, just so you've got a point of reference for note lengths and for subdividing beats (into 8th notes for example) and, once you've got it nailed at 60 bpm, gradually increase the speed.

This will get your fingers working as a pair playing straight 8ths or 16ths at a fair old lick.

Then add a bit of complexity with some string crossing exercises - try playing a major scale all in one (left hand) position for example. Again, start slow until you are accurate, then increase the bpm until you max out. Make sure you play the scale ascending and descending (lowest ot highest and vice versa), so that you get used to your plucking fingers jumping strings in both directions.

You can increase the complexity of the string crossing by adding in the thirds from the scale - i.e. play [b]C [/b]E [b]D [/b]F [b]E [/b]G [b]F [/b]A [b]G [/b]B [b]A [/b]C [b]B [/b]D where the bold notes are the C major scale and the unbolded are the respective third from the same scale of each bolded note - do this ascending and descending too.

You can repeat that exercise using the fourths (C to F, D to G etc.) fifths, sixths, sevenths and octaves. Once you get to the fifths, your right hand will need to cross two strings in a couple of places and three strings in one place by the time you get to the octaves.

As always, start slow, get it right, then introduce speed to the process.

Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was finger speed or strength. It won't happen for you overnight, but a little every day will get you up to speed before you know it.

If it's starting to hurt or you're getting cramp. Stop. Take a break or come back to it tomorrow, injuring yourself now is only gonna make things take longer. If you're consistently getting cramped up or finding it painful/uncomfortable, it might be an idea to go back to looking at basic technique issues like how to hold the bass or wear it on a strap, arm positions and so on.

[mcgraham]

+1 Also good advice!

Mark

[MuseMatt]

I just got so sad after having read this thread.

I have been playing for 6 years now, and I am definitely stuck at speed now My left hand technique has improved greatly over the last few years and so has my right hand technique but not my speed.

My fingers are quite close to the strings but I can't seem to get past the barrier... my target at the moment being able to play Stockholm Syndrome by Muse (durr...) without a pick.

Is it just me who finds that song ridiculously fast to play or are there more of you who think that the song is quite fast to play?

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='MuseMatt' post='956051' date='Sep 14 2010, 02:38 PM']... my target at the moment being able to play Stockholm Syndrome by Muse (durr...) without a pick.

Is it just me who finds that song ridiculously fast to play or are there more of you who think that the song is quite fast to play?[/quote]
No. Not [i]just[/i] you. That's slightly north of the border for my right hand too... I'd be reaching for the pick.

If you have some slowdowning type software, you can adjust the tempo to the point where you [i]can[/i] play it, & when you've got that down, speed it up incrementally until it's full speed... and then speed it up some more to give yourself some headroom.

Rather like using a metronome, but there's an obvious goal.

P.

[MuseMatt]

Thank you, I'll use winamp with pacemaker, which I can recommend to anyone who wants to slow down a song easily.

[Truckstop]

I never had problems learning to play fast!
I wanted to play Billy Sheehan's Hummingbird style and I just picked it up! Triplets I also found easy. Yeah, just practice, practice, practice. I find, that if you have a goal, you'll find yourself doing it in no time.

Truckstop

Edited September 14, 2010 by Truckstop

[woodyratm]

Agreed with all the above about practicing.

I just learned to play fast by going

1 + 2 + 3 + 4
m + i + m + i

Same applies to getting the ring finger working.

[MuseMatt]

Is the ring finger good for anything that's non triplet?

[michael-faces]

[quote]Is the ring finger good for anything that's non triplet?[/quote]

Yeah definitely! I use three fingers on my right hand for almost everything now. You should check out john myungs bass solo on Dance of eternity. But there are loads of bass players who use three fingers, the obvious one being billy sheehan. Another interesting technique which i've seen is players using their thumb as well as the three fingers pretty fast:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4
T + i + m + r

[GarethFlatlands]

I always use the following pattern as a warm-up, one finger per fret on the l/h, one finger per note on the right:-

a|----------1-2--1-2-3|
e|1-2-3-4------4------|

Start off slow and clean and build up speed and move it up/down the fretboard and across the neck. Helps synchronise your left and right hands too.

Try playing it backwards too!

[AndyTravis]

Probably not theoretically sound, but this worked for me after i smashed my right hand up a few years ago.

1 finger per fret, start at F on your E string....

1 st fret, index finger left hand, note plucked index finger right hand.
2nd fret, middle finger left hand, note plucked middle finger right hand.
3rd fret, ring finger left hand, note plucked index finger right hand.
4th fret, pinky left hand, note plucked middle finger right hand.

Then the A string, then D, then G...boring, but keeps your right hand consistent and the same for your right. Just crawling up the first 4 frets, imagine your right hand index and middle fingers as two little legs walking on the string.

Same velocity, same pace.

Do as 8th notes, then 16ths, then if you're feeling brave progress from there, add a bit of groove, whatever.

1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4
1.2.3.4.1.2.3.4
(hope this makes sense?)

Do this on any 4 frets up the neck, and eventually it'll come.

I'm sat with a bass and will be doing this later, sit in front of the telly doing it, and you'll nail it.

Bill buddah Dickens uses a 'rope' to mute his strings, i use a clean sock, or a wrist band.

[Chest Rockwell]

[quote name='MuseMatt' post='956051' date='Sep 14 2010, 02:38 PM']My fingers are quite close to the strings but I can't seem to get past the barrier... my target at the moment being able to play Stockholm Syndrome by Muse (durr...) without a p[/quote]

wow! im always impressed by Muse live clips but never really listen to them. that bass playing is insane! my band has a section where i do something like that, but it's just slightly slower and it's not as constant, so i can manage it. i tried playing along to that and my hand went numb!

I found in our last practice i didnt have the ability to really hit that section and thought i might have been dropping beats or notes. i got a bit worried, but didnt let on we carried on practice and at the end did our set... and i nailed it easily so yeah, being warmed up and loose has a hell of a lot to do with it too.

thanks for the headsup on that tune, im gonna try and aim for it (in a few months)!!

[mcgraham]

Holy resurrected thread Batman!

Thanks to Steve, I have copies of Hanon and my recommendations for use again if anyone is interested. PM me with an email address and I'll fire them off.

Mark

Edited September 16, 2010 by mcgraham

[Spoombung]

[quote name='agroupuk' post='306288' date='Oct 14 2008, 02:58 PM']Hey all,


So, basically is there a technique for training your fingers to work at speed and in rhythm or do I just practice, practice, practice?

Any help apreciated.



Thanks,

Edd[/quote]

Ed

The finger technique (like you see most bass players doing) does not suit everyone. I also can't play fast with two fingers doing upstroke.
Try these two alternatives:
1. Up and down strokes on one finger (like a plectrum). Anchor your thumb while you do this. Pluck lightly with the finger tip
2. Downstroke thumb, upstroke finger, alternate. Surprisingly easy and rarely used.

[phil.i.stein]

after wanting to play punk / metal at speed without a plectrum, i thought i should try three fingers.

for a while it was very tricky to get the notes to sound consistent, but finally after much practise it is paying off.

i never thought that i could manage 'violent and funky' by the infectious grooves, but i can now do a passable version.

stick with it, and as mentioned previously, 'relax !'. - try and breathe and play 'un'conciously, if that makes sense...

nothing great is achieved without solid effort, and the ability to switch off the self-conscious button.

[urb]

One of the coolest sounding things I heard was something Hadrien Feraud did at a bass clinic I went to a year or so ago - it sounded quite complex when he played it fast but when he stopped and explained what it was - it was just a major scale up and down, over one octave. I think there are loads of good suggestions here but it's the simpler exercises that I've found work well for practicing both speed but also clarity, i.e. playing with real precision and perfect articulation between each note. Hadrien's technique is just the basic index and middle finger picking, so my advice is just try going up and down a one octave scale - any one you like - and looping it - the hard part is keeping it 100% even, and keeping it going for a minute or two. As you get stronger, and your picking hand increases in accuracy, then speed up a little bit and keep this going - it's not rocket science but it is about consistency.

Another thing that will help with strength and speed is also about making your practice ideas groove - Wooten makes this point - and I think it's a good one - you can do a million things with a single scale, trying to make it swing, or funk, or skank in a raggae stylee is all good as well - rocking out in a speed metal or drum and bass way is also acceptable - as long as it's grooving!

Hope that helps

M