argibbo Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Hi folks. Anyone else bought or owned an amp that sounds lovely when played on it's own, but disappoints when gigging along with the band? Here's my problem. I have an Ampeg Portaflex head and my own 200W all valve head. (Think Fender Bassman 100 pre amp and Sound City power section). The Ampeg sounded lovely in the shop so I bought the amp and two matching cabs. I soon realised it absolutely couldn't touch the valve head for tone. Couldn't even get near it, but..... ...the valve head seems to have a boom at the bottom end that makes it sound muddy at gigs. Worse I've been threatened by flying drumsticks and violence coz our drummer doesn't like the boom, preferring the Ampeg. I'm not gonna give up on the ARG valve amp, never, coz it has tone that the Ampeg can only dream of, but... it does have this problem with bottom end. When I get some time I'm going to subject it to frequency response testing and adjust the amount of NFB to flatten the response. I can't live with inferior tone but extracting frumsticks from personal orifices is not on my to do list either. Anyone else noticed this trait in tube amplification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 At a guess, this is a preamp problem....if fiddling with your tone controls don't sort it, you need an amptech to contour your input signal until the problem is sorted...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I had a valve amp where the bottom end felt a little too loose at volume, and I had good results with reducing the value of the cathode bypass caps in the preamp just enough to roll off some of the sub-100Hz stuff, which tightened it right up. If you wanted to get fancy you could even put a switch in. Edited October 7, 2015 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Multi band compressor and EQ would sort it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Thumpinator? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TacaSl6dimU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think this is anything to do with valve sound either. The amps are just eq'd differently. this is really just another variation on the 'it sounds great at home' theme we've had on here several times. Deep bass is difficult to control, depends upon room acoustics and a bass sound that is great with the rest of the band sounds horrible when soloed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboy1984 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I wish I have that problem to deal with, my valve amp is too small to produce that much boom in band situation. My LB30 cuts thru the band onstage when driving abit hard but sounded like lemmy when solo which I don't quite like lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1444288095' post='2881809'] I don't think this is anything to do with valve sound either. The amps are just eq'd differently. this is really just another variation on the 'it sounds great at home' theme we've had on here several times. Deep bass is difficult to control, depends upon room acoustics and a bass sound that is great with the rest of the band sounds horrible when soloed. [/quote] Yep, end of story, there's a reason 'that' Ampeg tone has been such a mainstay, it works in the situation that most bass players need it to work, in the band setting on stage or in the studio. As Phil said, the old 'why do my band hate my lovely bassy tubey tone?' thing has been done to death, it's because like all instruments, what works solo and in ensemble situations are completely different. See if you can get hold of isolated bass tracks from some of the recordings on which you like the bass tone, you might be surprised just how crap it sounds without the band around it. It's the same with orchestral music also, when I used to do such a thing it always amazed me how, when the conductor called for a section to play a section in isolation, just how different it sounded without the rest of the orchestra, even with 'lead' instruments such as flutes and violins, but especially with double bass and tubas Bands are collaborative units, if your drummer is throwing things at you, you may need to have a serious think about the tone you're after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) [quote name='badboy1984' timestamp='1444290279' post='2881831'] I wish I have that problem to deal with, my valve amp is too small to produce that much boom in band situation. My LB30 cuts thru the band onstage when driving abit hard but sounded like lemmy when solo which I don't quite like lol. [/quote] But if you don't solo it doesn't matter (you might need more power/control if you do). Lemmy's bass is a great example of what I was on about above, awful solo, good in the mix Edited October 8, 2015 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 All that matters is how the band sounds as a whole. Ditch the valve head and use the PF. I used a 500 for a long long time and always got a great tone that complemented the band. Don't forget, the PFs are flat when all the knobs are completely off. Try leaving everything at zero and then bumping the mids while you're playing until you get something that works. I never put the bass above 9 o'clock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1444290337' post='2881832'] Yep, end of story, there's a reason 'that' Ampeg tone has been such a mainstay, it works in the situation that most bass players need it to work, in the band setting on stage or in the studio. As Phil said, the old 'why do my band hate my lovely bassy tubey tone?' thing has been done to death, it's because like all instruments, what works solo and in ensemble situations are completely different. See if you can get hold of isolated bass tracks from some of the recordings on which you like the bass tone, you might be surprised just how crap it sounds without the band around it. [/quote] Its surprising how little actual bass there is on many classic recorded bass sounds, that should tell us something. Up town funk is just about the only recording I've heard in recent years that has any genuinely deep bass on it, and it suits the song but wouldnt be a sound I would personally use. Re the sounds-good-in-the-shop thing, I guess its bit like flat screen TVs that are designed to look good in the showroom with super bright pictures, bass amps often have these "deep"/"bright"/"contour" type buttons that sound great solo'd at low volumes, but often not so much at volume in a mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 It might not be the head but how the head interacts with the particular cabs you're using it with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 [quote name='badboy1984' timestamp='1444290279' post='2881831'] I wish I have that problem to deal with, my valve amp is too small to produce that much boom in band situation. My LB30 cuts thru the band onstage when driving abit hard but sounded like lemmy when solo which I don't quite like lol. [/quote] Your amp has a "taste" control - it is telling you NOT TO SOLO EVERY! (snigger) Remember the old joke about when the drums stop..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 [quote name='argibbo' timestamp='1444246141' post='2881603'] I'm not gonna give up on the ARG valve amp, never, [/quote] Why are you sticking so doggedly to an amp that the band hates and even you admit has problems with its tone? Surly you can take a hint? If any part of your sound is bad then that cancels out all the good sounds. At the very least, I'd use the Ampeg until you figure out what you did to cause the bad tone in your DIY amp and do a rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1444764483' post='2885812'] Why are you sticking so doggedly to an amp that the band hates and even you admit has problems with its tone? Surly you can take a hint? If any part of your sound is bad then that cancels out all the good sounds. At the very least, I'd use the Ampeg until you figure out what you did to cause the bad tone in your DIY amp and do a rebuild. [/quote] Yep, that's the long and short of it. I've played with far too many inexperienced musicians who think that there is something magical about 'their' tone, despite the fact that only they can hear it, and who cause constant issues with other band members, soundguys and audiences because of it. Yes, some old tube amps can produce a gorgeous muted and diffuse bass tone, but the fact that this rarely worked in any mix was why amp manufacturers moved towards gear that accentuated mids and clarity, amps that not only got heard, but didn't swamp everything else doing so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I can't use my 60 watt valve amp with a friends Ashdown 410 as it just booms on the F# leaving everything else thin and indisinct. The amp doesn't do it with other cabs and if I use a different amp with his cab it's not really an issue either.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Surely an EQ pedal would sort this out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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