JTUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443647189' post='2876662'] Several people have referenced common tastes in material and some comments on songs you don't like playing. I used to have the sane concerns about performing songs I don't care for. When your gigging a lot and and trying to make a living, you really should leave the adolescent " I hate playing this song" at the door. This is what I did to change my attitude. What can I do as a bass player to make this song fun for me. Using New positions, bringing a new feel to the line adding an effect, different fills, whatever. My point, don't let a few songs take the fun out of playing or take the fun out of a gig. Blue [/quote] To me the players are more important that the song... but if the song is crap...in your opinion, then don't do it. Any song is vetoed if someone really doesn't want to play it. There is no point flogging that as they wont bring anything to it.. If you play songs with a good feel and energy, that is your start point.. if it doesn't get to that start point, bin it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443646197' post='2876647'] Who are these fuddie buddies of yester year you reference? I'm 62 and I'm not a fuddie duddie. Who are these fuddie duddies? Is that an English thing. I certainly don't know of any, Blue [/quote] He means 20years ago the set of 60year olds grew up on Glen Miller and Vera Lyn. Unlike today's 60year olds. Which may go some way to explain why there are so many bands around still playing all the old Beatles and Stones hits. If you're 20years old, you still have to play old fashioned music though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443686316' post='2876817'] To me the players are more important that the song... but if the song is crap...in your opinion, then don't do it. Any song is vetoed if someone really doesn't want to play it. There is no point flogging that as they wont bring anything to it.. If you play songs with a good feel and energy, that is your start point.. if it doesn't get to that start point, bin it [/quote] Thing is, if your not the band leader canning a song is not your call and not an option. That's why I say figure out a way to play your bass part differently so you can make it fun. Worked for me. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1443686480' post='2876819'] He means 20years ago the set of 60year olds grew up on Glen Miller and Vera Lyn. Unlike today's 60year olds. Which may go some way to explain why there are so many bands around still playing all the old Beatles and Stones hits. If you're 20years old, you still have to play old fashioned music though. [/quote] Agreed, gotcha. To me Beatles and Stones music is timeless and not old fashion. We had a 20 something open for us recently and this young guy had the crowd on their feet doing Beatles & James Taylor. Great guitar skills and vocals. Blue Edited October 1, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443719273' post='2877169'] Thing is, if your not the band leader canning a song is not your call and not an option. That's why I say figure out a way to play your bass part differently so you can make it fun. Worked for me. Blue [/quote] That is a pick-up band to me.... I'd make in an option if I felt strongly enough about it...I wouldn't invest in a band myself if they lacked what I thought was musical integrity. Sure, you can make things interesting but to do that...you need chemistry to play off one and another. I'm really picky that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443724440' post='2877226'] That is a pick-up band to me.... I'd make in an option if I felt strongly enough about it...I wouldn't invest in a band myself if they lacked what I thought was musical integrity. Sure, you can make things interesting but to do that...you need chemistry to play off one and another. I'm really picky that way. [/quote] This is not a pick up band. It's an established band, 9 years. We play around 75 regional shows annually. I have been with them for the last 4 years as bass guitarist and background vocals. I have no interest in what material the band plays. My interests is in steady consistent good bookings and money. When they hired me, it was to play bass and sing, not choose material, what songs we play or provide creative input. I think what you meant was [i]"sideman [/i]" not [i]"pick up"[/i] band. Blue Edited October 1, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443727122' post='2877265'] When they hired me it was to play bass and sing, not choose material or what songs we play. I think what you meant was those [i]"sideman [/i]" not [i]"pick up"[/i] band. Blue [/quote] Nope, I'm always a sideman as I don't do the gig solo and I play the bass part. And as a sideman, I'd expect input and to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443727707' post='2877273'] Nope, I'm always a sideman as I don't do the gig solo and I play the bass part. And as a sideman, I'd expect input and to contribute. [/quote] I meant, I'm a sideman and I was hired to play bass and sing, not pick or make decisions on material. I don't expect nor do I have any interest in song choice or creative input. That is why, for me , I come up with new bass lines , positions or other things to make songs I don't care for fun. And when I say sideman , I mean guys that play in only 1 band. So my point was or suggestion was aimed at other sideman like me that don't have the interest or the option to can songs. It might be different in the UK, in the States I don't know of any [i]"sideman" [/i]bass players that make decisions on material or any other band decisions. You show up and you play the songs that are called. Blue Edited October 1, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443729047' post='2877296'] I meant, I'm a sideman and I was hired to play bass and sing, not pick or make decisions on material. I don't expect nor do I have any interest in song choice or creative input. That is why, for me , I come up with new bass lines , positions or other things to make songs I don't care for fun. And when I say sideman , I mean guys that play in only 1 band. So my point was or suggestion was aimed at other sideman like me that don't have the interest or the option to can songs. It might be different in the UK, in the States I don't know of any [i]"sideman" [/i]bass players that make decisions on material or any other band decisions. You show up and you play the songs that are called. Blue [/quote] Precisely. Our singer, guitarist and drummer have enough arguments over song choices without me getting involved. Tell me what to play, when, I'll turn up and play it. I chose the band based on exsisting material, I trust the band leader to maintain the direction of the band. I've been the person leading the band and know how disruptive it is when you're trying to take the band in one direction and one or more members are fighting it. Making song suggestions is one thing. Vetoing songs is quite another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1443730258' post='2877316'] Precisely. Our singer, guitarist and drummer have enough arguments over song choices without me getting involved. Tell me what to play, when, I'll turn up and play it. I chose the band based on exsisting material, I trust the band leader to maintain the direction of the band. I've been the person leading the band and know how disruptive it is when you're trying to take the band in one direction and one or more members are fighting it. Making song suggestions is one thing. Vetoing songs is quite another. [/quote] Yes to all that. We're on the same page. It's just another side issue or example of how some guys get frustrated with bands. It gets back to knowing what your looking for in a band. If a guy has an interest in some of the higher level band decisions, he should make sure the band will give him that sort of role in the band. Blue Edited October 1, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1443727707' post='2877273'] Nope, I'm always a sideman as I don't do the gig solo and I play the bass part. And as a sideman, I'd expect input and to contribute. [/quote] [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443729047' post='2877296'] I meant, I'm a sideman and I was hired to play bass and sing, not pick or make decisions on material. I don't expect nor do I have any interest in song choice or creative input. That is why, for me , I come up with new bass lines , positions or other things to make songs I don't care for fun. And when I say sideman , I mean guys that play in only 1 band. So my point was or suggestion was aimed at other sideman like me that don't have the interest or the option to can songs. It might be different in the UK, in the States I don't know of any [i]"sideman" [/i]bass players that make decisions on material or any other band decisions. You show up and you play the songs that are called. Blue [/quote] Surely by definition a sideman is just there to play bass, can be replaced relatively easily and doesn’t have much input on material and other creative decisions. I would have thought that being a sideman would make it easier to play in multiple bands. In one of my current bands I am definitely part of the frontline and not a sideman. The band is run as sort of a democracy but me and the guitarist (as the most experienced players) tend to choose material (although we take care to pick songs the other two will be happy with) and MD the band between us, whilst the drummer does most of the marketing / social media stuff, etc. In some of my other bands I take on more of a sideman role… Edited October 1, 2015 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443719583' post='2877173'] Agreed, gotcha. To me Beatles and Stones music is timeless and not old fashion. [/quote] Actually, on this issue I don't think that it really matters so much whether you think that the Beatles / Stones are timeless and still relevant today! I would say that the point is that past generations of men would hit their fifties and would start ‘acting’ middle aged – you know, investing in a pipe and a good pair of slippers from M&S and dressing from the sales rail at Greenwoods!! Whereas people your age are part of the ‘rock and roll’ generation that were brought up in the 60s and even though you are now in your sixties still have pretty much the same attitude that you have had all your adult life, as evidenced by the way you dress and general lifestyle! Obviously it is pretty much the same for the subsequent generations, including people like me and my mates who were first introduced to music in the 70s. These days middle aged people obviously still get older, but they don’t always choose to grow up into middle / old age in the way that their parents did… Edited October 1, 2015 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1443735553' post='2877375'] Actually, on this issue I don't think that it really matters so much whether you think that the Beatles / Stones are timeless and still relevant today! I would say that the point is that past generations of men would hit their fifties and would start ‘acting’ middle aged – you know, investing in a pipe and a good pair of slippers from M&S and dressing from the sales rail at Greenwoods!! Whereas people your age are part of the ‘rock and roll’ generation that were brought up in the 60s and even though you are now in your sixties still have pretty much the same attitude that you have had all your adult life, as evidenced by the way you dress and general lifestyle! Obviously it is pretty much the same for the subsequent generations, including people like me and my mates who were first introduced to music in the 70s. These days middle aged people obviously still get older, but they don’t always choose to grow up into middle / old age in the way that their parents did… [/quote] Agreed, my attitude and spirit is the same as it was back in the 60s & 70s. I always say, I'm older, but I will never be old. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1443734670' post='2877368'] Surely by definition a sideman is just there to play bass, can be replaced relatively easily and doesn’t have much input on material and other creative decisions. I would have thought that being a sideman would make it easier to play in multiple bands. In one of my current bands I am definitely part of the frontline and not a sideman. The band is run as sort of a democracy but me and the guitarist (as the most experienced players) tend to choose material (although we take care to pick songs the other two will be happy with) and MD the band between us, whilst the drummer does most of the marketing / social media stuff, etc. In some of my other bands I take on more of a sideman role… [/quote] For those who want that sort of role or responsibility, it might be one of those questions to ask prior to joining a bad; [i]" Will I have a say in what material the band will play and what it won't play? "[/i] Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1443519668' post='2875389'] So if you can't find people who share your tastes, you don't play? [/quote] A lot of guys would prefer staying in the bedroom if they can't find a band that plays specifically what they want. To me, that means they're not really in the game or I should say they are in a different game. I have a buddy a guitarist who is exactly like this. He told me, [i]"I don't have to be in a band"[/i]. Right there I knew as a musician I had nothing in common with him. I have to be in a band. Blue Edited October 2, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1443768264' post='2877466'] Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? [/quote] In both cases, you are working for someone else .... [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideman"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideman[/url] [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_group"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_group[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1443772316' post='2877506'] In both cases, you are working for someone else .... [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideman"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideman[/url] [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_group"]https://en.wikipedia...ki/Pickup_group[/url] [/quote] http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Sidemans-Journey-Voormann-Friends/dp/B0028RFC2O/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_1 Klaus Voormann is the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1443768264' post='2877466'] Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? [/quote] A variation of a pick-up band is a 'scratch' band, which is put together for a specific performance and without any rehearsal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1443768264' post='2877466'] Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? [/quote] I was getting confused too ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I like to have input in a band, especially over material. This may not be specific songs but on direction. If there's some aspect of the band I think it total arse then I want to be in a situation where I can say so, and that goes from songs to promotional material. If someone produces a gig poster and I think it looks like a 3 year old did it I'll say so. I'm standing out in public performing music, I don't want it looking in what would be my view, rubbish. I'm not interested in being a 'side man' or in scratch bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1443751425' post='2877439'] He told me, [i]"I don't have to be in a band"[/i]. Right there I knew as a musician I had nothing in common with him. I have to be in a band. [/quote] +1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1443785582' post='2877657'] I like to have input in a band, especially over material. This may not be specific songs but on direction. If there's some aspect of the band I think it total arse then I want to be in a situation where I can say so, and that goes from songs to promotional material. If someone produces a gig poster and I think it looks like a 3 year old did it I'll say so. I'm standing out in public performing music, I don't want it looking in what would be my view, rubbish. I'm not interested in being a 'side man' or in scratch bands. [/quote] I've been a sideman in the same Band for over 4 years, playing bass and singing. We have a band leader that makes all those band decisions and she's good at it.I support all of her decisions. Were all different as I said before,if you like those sort of details it's fine. I have no interest in that side of the band. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1443768264' post='2877466'] Can someone give the definition of sideman and pick-up band? [/quote] A side man is a player whom plays a supportive role. And by that he may have input into the song, the feel, the direction, He is involved in the band unit and its business...and a big part of that business is getting gigs which goes to material which he would have an opinion on, no doubt. If you just turn up and are directed, then this is more inline with a pick-up/dep/scratch..which I didn't actually want to determine... You might be THE regular guy who does most/all of the gigs but you could easiiy replaced as nothing you do is not expendable. I would want to avoid that if it was a band I wanted to stay in...but as always, there are subtle variations..so nothing is cast in stone. Most of the bands I play in have very high changeability...it is the way it is. It is very hard to get a high level band with hi level players all to be available at the same time, every time. You can get a pretty decent band all pulling together and dedicated to that one one band..but generally anyone who is any good..relatively speaking.. will be in demand and all it takes is for them to be open to another gig and you have diary conflict potential. Of course, there are always exceptions...etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I wonder if the woodwind section of the London Philharmonic consider themselves side(wo)men or members of a scratch band ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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