discreet Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='largo' timestamp='1426856901' post='2722769'] My biggest bother would be pulling £2K on a couple of PA speakers that we couldn't hear beforehand. It's a giant leap of faith! [/quote] I believe Alex has a scheme whereby you can trial gear for a month and if you don't like it, send it back. You pay for return postage though, but I still think it's worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 So if you are running one sub, you need a separate feed for this.... No option to sum two input sources (from a stereo left/right feed) to then feed the top cabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1426860289' post='2722831'] So if you are running one sub, you need a separate feed for this.... No option to sum two input sources (from a stereo left/right feed) to then feed the top cabs. [/quote] Really...?? Would have assumed a simple pass thru otherwise you need a separate signal..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426865355' post='2722915'] Really...?? Would have assumed a simple pass thru otherwise you need a separate signal..?? [/quote] How do you mean.... unless you pass through from one of the mid/high but then you are only getting that from one channel of a stereo mix.... may be missing some info in the signal in that case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1426792583' post='2722087'] Lots of people. Two subs cause problems - one sub does the job because low end at sub frequencies is non-directional, i.e. you can't tell where it's coming from, so you don't need two subs - you get your stereo from the tops. [/quote] [quote name='Bankai' timestamp='1426794823' post='2722122'] Having a sub on either side of the stage will nearly always result in a worse sound out front in smaller venues. Phase mashing and all that. One single decent sub will give much better results. [/quote] [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426846702' post='2722551'] Agree, lots do and I think it is valid if all you want to do is add a bit of depth. Put it anywhere, as bass will go everywhere. Perfect scenario for a average sized pub for when the tops get run a bit too hard with kick and keys..?? [/quote] Naaa, sorry guys. I know all the tech talk and the miths but this may not be quite exactly as the theory says, from my own personal experience. First, using only one sub, in order for it to be balanced with the tops output it has to be loud, and i mean loud, and that will be very incovinient for whoever is standing next to it. Two subs can be used a lot lower and give more comfort to the band. Second, unfortunetly not all venues have a suitable space for bands, as example i can say we use to play in a local irish pub that's pretty much a corridor and the band plays facing the narrower side, on the center. If the pub gets too crowded the lows end up being drowned on one side if there's only one sub running on the other side. Third, who plays on a bar/pub that's big enough to have phase canceling problems? Never had that happening on a gig anywhere. This is all IMO and IME. I may be wrong but it's been working for me, and yes, i used PA's with 1 sub + 2 tops in the past and allways had problems with either lack or too much lows depending on the rooms. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1426867962' post='2722946'] Naaa, sorry guys. [/quote] It's difficult for humans to localise low frequencies in a room any smaller than a concert hall. This is merely a fact. Obviously it's up to you whether you believe it or not... Edited March 20, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Just to add to the subs debate, we always use two because our tops are pole mounted and its much easier to get an even spread this way. As has already been mentioned, you can control the output level of your subs separately from the output level of your tops. Similarly, if your using a fully featured crossover, then you can also deal with phase issues by introducing delay to one side or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoo Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1426875866' post='2723058'] you can also deal with phase issues by introducing delay to one side or the other. [/quote] But the phase difference will vary depending on where you are in the room, won't it? So adding delay to one side would just move the problems around the room a bit, wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I ran 1k+ kit for years & if you treated the sub as an afterthought somewhere 'over there' - It didn't happen. Admittedly, I'm a sound system not a band, so that might make a difference.....(?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1426867881' post='2722945'] How do you mean.... unless you pass through from one of the mid/high but then you are only getting that from one channel of a stereo mix.... may be missing some info in the signal in that case [/quote] Assuming L and R main signal out of the Desk... into Sub 1 via passthru to Top 1... so that side gets the depth of the sub. Personally, I wouldn't even be pan the signals ... and then on the other signal I'd have a pass filter to the top... OR pan the signals to bais the side.. Anyway, what I meant was the tops or subs need a pass thru option of the cab inputs..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I just wanted to repeat that the FR800s contain their own subs, in effect! The LF800(s) are there to increase max LF SPL, not to go lower. So if you are using two FR800s as your PA system you already have two subs. If you are using two FR800s and one LF800 you have three (3!!!) subs, not one. If you are using two FR800s and two LF800 you have four (FOUR!) subs. Just wanted to make that clear! If you're arguing about other PA rigs with conventional tops and subs then do carry on - but if you're talking about the Barefaced PA approach then re-read the previous paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I mentioned one sub as adequate and a bit of depth to the sound only in a smaller pub. It is a bit of depth only not sound re-enforcement as such, It is just to help the tops in a generally tops only gig for keys and kick.. So, to repeat myself.. :lol; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1426882549' post='2723193'] I just wanted to repeat that the FR800s contain their own subs, in effect! The LF800(s) are there to increase max LF SPL, not to go lower. So if you are using two FR800s as your PA system you already have two subs. If you are using two FR800s and one LF800 you have three (3!!!) subs, not one. If you are using two FR800s and two LF800 you have four (FOUR!) subs. Just wanted to make that clear! If you're arguing about other PA rigs with conventional tops and subs then do carry on - but if you're talking about the Barefaced PA approach then re-read the previous paragraph. [/quote] How can they contain their own sub if its a two way box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426880855' post='2723161'] Assuming L and R main signal out of the Desk... into Sub 1 via passthru to Top 1... so that side gets the depth of the sub. Personally, I wouldn't even be pan the signals ... and then on the other signal I'd have a pass filter to the top... OR pan the signals to bais the side.. Anyway, what I meant was the tops or subs need a pass thru option of the cab inputs..?? [/quote] Yes I understand this.... but on the rear panel of these cabs you only have one input.... therefore you cannot run a stereo/leftright into them, therefore you would need a mono sum mix from the desk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1426936938' post='2723637'] How can they contain their own sub if its a two way box? [/quote] It looks like it's being eq'd to work as a full range system on a pole. A bit like the old Bose 802s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfire666 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 i would love to see a real life A/B comparison against a conventional rig. 2x subs + 2x tops vs 2x Fr800, im really tempted by a new rig but its a lot of cash to fork out, if it stacks up though it would be a real bargain comparatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1426937128' post='2723642'] Yes I understand this.... but on the rear panel of these cabs you only have one input.... therefore you cannot run a stereo/leftright into them, therefore you would need a mono sum mix from the desk [/quote] Ok... not good then. I was talking about normal subs and tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426974522' post='2724410'] Ok... not good then. I was talking about normal subs and tops. [/quote] I get you..... yes because you would have separate left and right stacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The left/right point is a contentious one with subs! Apart from that brief period in the '60s when the like of Cream and The Beatles were going "wow! we have stereo, let's stick the bass on that side and the drums on the other", almost all music is recorded with instruments with sub content down the middle rather than panned. And then in mastering true lows get tidied into the middle because it works better on playback. If you're mastering for vinyl you actually have to run the lows in mono or risk the needle jumping. So I can't see there being problems with feeding a sub off a left or right send for recorded music. When dealing with live bands it's rare to do any significant panning and the bass and kick should always be down the middle. If you pan live music like you would recorded music then everything sounds wrong for the closer members of the audience, especially as the stage monitoring bleed will contribute to an imbalance out front. So I'd like to think that the lack of a stereo summing input on the sub is a non-issue.. Incidentally the first customer pair of FR800s was gigged last night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1427029023' post='2724814'] The left/right point is a contentious one with subs! Apart from that brief period in the '60s when the like of Cream and The Beatles were going "wow! we have stereo, let's stick the bass on that side and the drums on the other", almost all music is recorded with instruments with sub content down the middle rather than panned. And then in mastering true lows get tidied into the middle because it works better on playback. If you're mastering for vinyl you actually have to run the lows in mono or risk the needle jumping. So I can't see there being problems with feeding a sub off a left or right send for recorded music. When dealing with live bands it's rare to do any significant panning and the bass and kick should always be down the middle. If you pan live music like you would recorded music then everything sounds wrong for the closer members of the audience, especially as the stage monitoring bleed will contribute to an imbalance out front. So I'd like to think that the lack of a stereo summing input on the sub is a non-issue.. Incidentally the first customer pair of FR800s was gigged last night! [/quote] I was referring to using a one sub setup..... I would say for live use not an issue as per your post but if using for DJ purposes and I would say that if the cabs perform as you say they would then these would then DJ's would be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 That's what I meant too - you could use a single sub off a left or right send and it should work as well as if using a mono summed send. You just need some way to adjust the level to balance the sub with whatever tops you're using (which can be done within the DSP if need be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1427029023' post='2724814'] Incidentally the first customer pair of FR800s was gigged last night! [/quote] And... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1427031846' post='2724851'] And... [/quote] Yup, gonna need to hear some more about this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Nothing specific, I'm afraid. I was hoping to be there, but something cropped up. The guitarist's a very good mate of mine - he text'd me earlier today saying that it went well, the cabs 'done the biz', and that the bass player, who also does the PA, was 'dead chuffed' with 'em. Not sure how he used them - he normally uses a conventional amp, through a BB2. Hoping to get to a gig next weekend... Edited March 22, 2015 by barkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Glad to hear it! We had this comment from another customer on our facebook: "Witnessed what must be the first Barefaced PA sale tonight, to Ash's band Bad Monkey Driver doing a pub gig - works as advertised! No separate bass guitar rig either, just DI'ed into the PA mixer with the rest of the band." https://www.facebook.com/pages/Barefaced-Bass-speaker-cabs/130257677703 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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