How Long at the Pub?

[chaypup]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1410101477' post='2546089']
Not necessarily true, I think. Not all bands are run as businesses; there are many that do not have the same financial or commercial reasoning. Why go for £150 if one could get £250..? Maybe because, in their eyes, £150 is enough..? Not 'What they're worth' (that's not part of the equation...), but what they consider makes the deal worthwhile.
Fixing a price between the other bands is rather close to a 'cartel', isn't it..? Is there no notion of competition between bands going on..? In this 'free market economy', much vaunted in other debates, is this not a healthy sign, a way of cutting out the dead wood..? Basically these are false arguments, as the bands concerned are probably not playing for the same reasons (... or are they merely more 'efficient' than the higher cost ones..?)
[/quote]

Running a business at a loss subsidised by other businesses within the same company is also illegal and I think that this is what going out for 50% of the average rate equates to in band terms. Of course, it isn't illegal in this context but it's jolly bad form all the same.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1410342346' post='2548255']
Running a business at a loss subsidised by other businesses within the same company is also illegal and I think that this is what going out for 50% of the average rate equates to in band terms. Of course, it isn't illegal in this context but it's jolly bad form all the same.
[/quote]

Would this same 'logic' apply equally to amateur theatre troupes..? Are they 'bad form' vis à vis professional actors..? How about concert orchestras, formed by amateurs, or the traditional brass band..? Is this unfair competition that professional musicians should abhor..? What's the difference, if the players are enjoying their 'hobby', and entertaining others at a cost all the participants are happy with..? Who's policing all of this 'bad form' and making the rules..? What [i]are [/i]the rules, in fact..?

[Weststarx]

Personally I play for the enjoyment and because I love music.

Getting paid even anything to do a passion of mine to me is absolutely amazing.

[r16ktx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1410343766' post='2548279']
Who's policing all of this 'bad form' and making the rules..? What [i]are [/i]the rules, in fact..?
[/quote]
Hmm, sounds like a new quango is in order... ;-)

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='r16ktx' timestamp='1410346783' post='2548342']
Hmm, sounds like a new quango is in order... ;-)
[/quote]

Is that somewhere between a quick-step and a tango?

[blue]

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1410336463' post='2548181']
we get £100-£150 to split between 5 of us...
[/quote]

We are a 4 piece, we won't turn the car ignition on for less than $100.00 US green backs per man. Again, it's a little different in the US most bar/club gigs are 4 hours.

Blue

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1410364027' post='2548593']


We are a 4 piece, we won't turn the car ignition on for less than $100.00 US green backs per man. Again, it's a little different in the US most bar/club gigs are 4 hours.

Blue
[/quote]
But that is just under £250 - about the same or a little bit more than the standard pub gig fee for most places in Blighty for 2x45 min sets...!

[JTUK]

My mate works down in Florida and he says the playing times are killer ( 4 plus hours )
If a band has to play for that time in a pub, then they aren't there for the band... and you will have
quite a flow of people coming and going, IMO.

Not so good for the band itself and very good for the bar owner... but then he will have people working the bar
for tips so its seems quite a business to be in if he can undercut costs to that degree

[blue]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1410367087' post='2548640']
But that is just under £250 - about the same or a little bit more than the standard pub gig fee for most places in Blighty for 2x45 min sets...!
[/quote]

Wow, I would love to do 2X45 min set club/bar gigs.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1410367847' post='2548653']
My mate works down in Florida and he says the playing times are killer ( 4 plus hours )
If a band has to play for that time in a pub, then they aren't there for the band... and you will have
quite a flow of people coming and going, IMO.

Not so good for the band itself and very good for the bar owner... but then he will have people working the bar
for tips so its seems quite a business to be in if he can undercut costs to that degree
[/quote]

True, most bar level bands are not playing to crowds that came their to see them or live music which can be a drag.

Off Topic,

Sad , but when I see the 21-25 year old crowd come into a club/bar were playing or any where there is a live band, they usually leave.and I mean leave immediately

Blue.

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1410376222' post='2548809']


True, most bar level bands are not playing to crowds that came their to see them or live music which can be a drag.

Off Topic,

Sad , but when I see the 21-25 year old crowd come into a club/bar were playing or any where there is a live band, they usually leave.and I mean leave immediately

Blue.
[/quote]
That is not generally the case over here in the UK and certainly not in mainland Europe...

[JTUK]

What music are you playing ?

Pub music over here is an attraction in itself and 'my' beef is that
there are too many unsuitable venues and bands.
But once a pub has its catchment, then that will tend to support
most bands that play there through the year. So a band that brings in a few plus
the pubs regulars makes the gig likely sustainable.

We've also found that pubs that mess with the rosta/rota and change nights around tend
to lose out ... It doesn't take many bad nights at a venue to undo a lot of good ones.

People round here tend to know which bands do what and are worth seeing..so it is a tough-ish market
to break into, but once in, you'll do ok.

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1410384203' post='2548962']
What music are you playing ?

Pub music over here is an attraction in itself and 'my' beef is that
there are too many unsuitable venues and bands.
But once a pub has its catchment, then that will tend to support
most bands that play there through the year. So a band that brings in a few plus
the pubs regulars makes the gig likely sustainable.

We've also found that pubs that mess with the rosta/rota and change nights around tend
to lose out ... It doesn't take many bad nights at a venue to undo a lot of good ones.

People round here tend to know which bands do what and are worth seeing..so it is a tough-ish market
to break into, but once in, you'll do ok.
[/quote]
I would certainly agree with that!

[Dad3353]

Maybe not typical, but in the US films and TV that we see, bar bands are only there to provide background rock for the topless gogo dancers prancing up and down chromium poles on the counter, with notes tucked into their 'costumes'.
Does the 4-hour playing time include the mandatory bar fight which destroys most of the furniture and ends with a pistol shot from the Sheriff, or not..? [size=4] [/size]

[ubit]

Times are changing because a few years ago, pubs used to put on bands that attracted a crowd, certainly in my area, but nowadays you are not the main attraction. Kids come in for a few on their way to the disco or night club and if we are lucky, we will get busy spells, but to think we are what's brought them in is a bit conceited. Some bands, ourselves included, do have a few people who will make an effort, but it's not what it used to be for pub cover bands.

[JTUK]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1411303123' post='2558238']
Times are changing because a few years ago, pubs used to put on bands that attracted a crowd, certainly in my area, but nowadays you are not the main attraction. Kids come in for a few on their way to the disco or night club and if we are lucky, we will get busy spells, but to think we are what's brought them in is a bit conceited. Some bands, ourselves included, do have a few people who will make an effort, but it's not what it used to be for pub cover bands.
[/quote]

Really.... ? nobody bothers with pubs that are on the way to the clubs.
Round here the band IS the evening and you are expected to bring in
20 or 30 and the pub will have 20 or so regulars so that should be your
good night. If you can't do this, you aren't a viable band for the pub circuit.
Basically the band makes the evening as some pubs will not be anywhere near
passing trade.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1410364027' post='2548593']


We are a 4 piece, we won't turn the car ignition on for less than $100.00 US green backs per man. Again, it's a little different in the US most bar/club gigs are 4 hours.

Blue
[/quote]

I know a guitar player based in New York who has played sessions on a good few hit albums, toured with the likes of Vince Gill, Bo Diddley etc. and gets offered big tours quite regularly. He was telling me that the fee for a standard bar NYC gig has been around $100 a night for the last 10 - 15 years plus, and that's for 3 - 4 hours, which is why he's spending hardly any time playing now and more on his gym and personal training business. He loves to play, he's a very, very good player, but it's just not worth it for the money - and he can't take the big tours any more as he has commited to being at home more whilst his daughter grows up. The USA market in my experience expects far more ability and quality for the money than the UK - not least because there are so many good musicians and great bands - all looking for a gig, they can afford to be fussy and pay crap fees. That may only be a New York thing, and it's different in the sticks, but I'm amazed at the quality of muso I have seen in bars in the USA -and on more than one occasion.

[JTUK]

$100 a man or the gig..??
As for the quality of player... many guys with very good CV's are out there turning over money.
£150 a gig..which is what a function will easily pay will get guys willing to travel from 100 miles
away.
Local guys on gigs round here have played with Groove Amarda, Take That, L42, Nik Kershaw, Paul Young,
Bryan Ferry AC/DC, Texas etc, etc etc and you can get these guys for pub money IF they haven't got anything else
AND you are a good gig. Some of these guys are still getting the top gigs but most have made their money.
The younger guys will take TOP rated gigs for the same function money as the older dudes will go out for
so this has pushed some of the older guys out of London in terms of the going rate.

The relationship between player and booker is based on trust so you have to do as well as you can for these guys
but they still want to get out and play for a decent gig.

Edited September 24, 2014 by JTUK

[TimR]

That's because even at a pro level musicians are in it for the music first and money second but it's such a fine line that the money has to be enough. No one wants to pay to play.

We do two sets of an hour. Then we have an hour set up and and hour breakdown. I played on Sunday afternoon for £30. Works out £6ph including my travelling. However, I usually spend a good portion of my Sunday afternoon doing the weekly shop and scratting around for something to do.

The £30 is usually more but we had some band operational costs (website etc) to pay this month.

I'm not keen on less than £80 for a Saturday night.

Edited September 24, 2014 by TimR

[FuNkShUi]

2 sets of 45 mins/60 mins
£250-£300
We will do it cheaper if its a place we havent played before, in the hope we pick up more work from it

Edited September 24, 2014 by FuNkShUi

[The Admiral]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1411545215' post='2560447']
$100 a man or the gig..??
As for the quality of player... many guys with very good CV's are out there turning over money.
£150 a gig..which is what a function will easily pay will get guys willing to travel from 100 miles
away.
Local guys on gigs round here have played with Groove Amarda, Take That, L42, Nik Kershaw, Paul Young,
Bryan Ferry AC/DC, Texas etc, etc etc and you can get these guys for pub money IF they haven't got anything else
AND you are a good gig. Some of these guys are still getting the top gigs but most have made their money.
The younger guys will take TOP rated gigs for the same function money as the older dudes will go out for
so this has pushed some of the older guys out of London in terms of the going rate.

The relationship between player and booker is based on trust so you have to do as well as you can for these guys
but they still want to get out and play for a decent gig.
[/quote]

$100 a man, and that's based on being a great player, but I take the point about whether it's better to be out playing for average or poor fees, rather than sat at home earning nothing. I think in the case of the guy I talking about, he's had enough of dragging his gear across the city for a long gig, and earning $100 - getting in at 2 or 3 a.m.. He still takes the odd corporate gig with a big name - he picked up $8500 for a credit card company convention party the other year, plus private jet to and from - to the Caribbean, so it's not all grim, but he now has other business interests, which make him more money for less work, so the necessity of gigging is less.

[JTUK]

$100 a man for a 4 hr gig is a lot of work. Seems the U.S market wants its pound of flesh.
The fees that places pay is a common theme amongst muso's here and pub work is certainly
not considered as the mainstay income, altho noone can afford to totally ignore it amongst
guys trying to make a living. Their goal will be to get a high paying function ( which they MUST
do pretty much every week ) plus private lessons or maybe in a School and then topped up
with a few pub type sessions.
Music schools are increasing and my town probably has about 5 and one or two of those
will boast of having 100 pupils. If you talk to the rehearsal studios they will guestimate that there
are over 100 bands in my town of 100, 000 plus.
Every week people will complain about the money not being there, but quite a few full time muso's
will have mortgages so they must have been able to produce a decent enough proposition to the
bank to get one.
I wouldn't work at it full time as it doesn't pay enough money and I know what people have to do
to get what they do.....but they love it, I assume. I think it is work just like anything else so schlepping
up to a gig on weekend, where you have to leave at 2:30 in the afternoon and getting back 12 hrs plus later
is hard week-in week-out. You can get the big function date/wedding for £2k plus, and some bands are geared
up for that but it is still a struggle to do 40 plus of those a year and if you don't/can't/wont hit those figures, you
have a huge hole in your earning plan.
The old pro's will take a pub date if they fancy it, but I assume they don't have to. They might also have little
requests like they don't carry kit or set-up it up which is quaint but not sustainable. I find the playing levels
between those guys now and the better standard local muso's to be pretty close ..or closer than you'd think,
but every now and then, one of them will come along and you understand that you can be outclassed.when they start
to really play. Having said that, you'll get guys with very good CV's and you really have to know what they excel at
as you REALLY wouldn't want to book them for a Rock and Roll gig etc.

Fees and players is a fascinating subject, IMO but basically everyone likes to earn better money but sometimes it just
isn't there. It is no good an ex name asking for silly money if they don't bring the people in so you soon learn what
the market will stand. That pretty much applies to anyone.

Edited September 25, 2014 by JTUK