Why put flats on a fancy bass?

[molan]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1388614608' post='2324144']


I think that to an extent you're right, a modern Squier Precision with flats will sound much the same as a Fender Custom Shop Precision with flats (and dare I say, a pre-CBS with flats). I'm not sure it holds true in all cases though, and I'm also not convinced that the same isn't true with rounds?

[/quote]

I don't have a Squier to compare with but I have listened to a '61P up against a modern Lull P fitted with the same strings and they sounded really different. There's a loose similarity in the core P bass sound but the general tone was quite distinct between the two. Couldn't really say which I preferred (although I'd like to own both!), lol.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1388614501' post='2324143']
Yay, I knew you'd have to take a personal pop eventually, now that is genuinely funny.[/quote]

Great trolling effort, well done. I started this thread on the 28th of December and you've been referencing it in other threads since then, apparently desperate to get a response from me. I am glad I was finally able to satisfy your desperate longing.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1388614501' post='2324143']The thing that genuinely surprises me every time you start one of these threads is that you always say you're so happy with a£200 Korean Squier. If that's so why do you feel the need to keep taking a pop at people who feel like spending more than £200 on an instrument - I just don't get where this animosity & bile comes from.[/quote]

Actually I paid £100 for that bass. I do have a more valuable bass which I'm very fond of, but I don't feel the need to wave it in everybody's faces all the time.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1388614501' post='2324143']PS - I don't have any Foderas for sale and the latest line at the shop where I help out (entirely for free)[/quote]

Oh. Well I don't want to alarm you but Companies House have you listed as a director of Bass Gear. I'd assumed you were aware of this? You should get in touch with them immediately and let them know you merely help out there occasionally.

[Beedster]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1388615819' post='2324159']
I don't have a Squier to compare with but I have listened to a '61P up against a modern Lull P fitted with the same strings and they sounded really different. There's a loose similarity in the core P bass sound but the general tone was quite distinct between the two. Couldn't really say which I preferred (although I'd like to own both!), lol.
[/quote]

You might find that the Squier sounds closer to the '61 than you'd expect. Wouldn't look, feel, smell (or cost) the same mind

[molan]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1388616948' post='2324177']


You might find that the Squier sounds closer to the '61 than you'd expect. Wouldn't look, feel, smell (or cost) the same mind
[/quote]

Closest I've been able to compare is a Mexican J to a US Standard J to a Custom Shop. They were all quite different tonally but, to be honest, I've played 3-4 Custom Shop J's back to back and every one sounded different to the next one as well.

Could be that there's more variation in tone between J's than P's.

I have also played a pair of Monarch Standards with a PJ configuration back to back on just the P pickup. Now they were surprisingly different, especially because both had EMG pickups. One was a complete growl machine whilst the other was much more refined.

Both had identical pre-amps so all I could put it down to were the woods used. Both were 'officially' the same wood combination but one was very highly figured flame maple and the other was a plainer piece of wood. Necks felt a little,different as well. Of course, both had rounds on so maybe a set of flats would have made them much closer in tone - I still have access to them so that might be a nice test

[molan]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1388616465' post='2324167']


Great trolling effort, well done. I started this thread on the 28th of December and you've been referencing it in other threads since then, apparently desperate to get a response from me. I am glad I was finally able to satisfy your desperate longing.



Actually I paid £100 for that bass. I do have a more valuable bass which I'm very fond of, but I don't feel the need to wave it in everybody's faces all the time.



Oh. Well I don't want to alarm you but Companies House have you listed as a director of Bass Gear. I'd assumed you were aware of this? You should get in touch with them immediately and let them know you merely help out there occasionally.
[/quote]

Wow, your paranoia knows no bounds does it. Whenever someone doesn't agree with one of your 'factual' statements you take it really personally and go after them and try to drive them into submission. If you don't succeed you just attack them and call them trolls - what strange behaviour

The inverse snobbery of continually waving your cheap, but perfect, sub £100 bass in everyone's faces is all a bit dull now. Maybe try a new tactic, might generate more sympathy.

Companies House see the annual returns of the shop. Why not write to them and ask how much I earn from the business. You'll discover that I've never taken a penny of income. In fact it costs me money to help they guys out and I'm never there more than a day a week. Of course, having access to a, continually changing, array of basses does at least allow me to offer a more 'informed' opinion than people who just spout their opinions (or those they've 'borrowed' from other forums) as if they are somehow scientifically proven. However, my opinions are simply that - personal opinions that I've come to based on direct personal experience. . .

Edited January 1, 2014 by molan

[icastle]

Gentlemen,

If you want to have a go at each other, either get a room or take it to PM.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1388617966' post='2324193']
Closest I've been able to compare is a Mexican J to a US Standard J to a Custom Shop. They were all quite different tonally but, to be honest, I've played 3-4 Custom Shop J's back to back and every one sounded different to the next one as well.

Could be that there's more variation in tone between J's than P's.
[/quote]

A Mexican Fender could be a bit of a red herring in this type of comparison, as they use ceramic pickups which are very different in design to the traditional alnico jobs. The CV or VM Squiers should be closer to old style US Fenders in this respect. Aside from the flats vs. rounds thing, I'd agree with the OP in that this type of instruments are quite simple beasts by design and consequently the cheaper ones can often do a respectable job.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1388193304' post='2319444']
You know you'll only get a limited sound from flatwound strings, so why not just put them on a cheap passive bass instead of a vintage P?

Here's my thing: I've got a Korean Squier Jazz that I put LaBella 760FLs on, and replaced the tone pot with a push/pull that will put it in series (and replaced the tone cap with a .1uF so it'll do reggae), but yeah, with the tone wide open it's got a genuinely perfect soul tone, can't imagine anything ever sounding any better, and so I wonder: Why does anybody spend so much to get that sound?
[/quote]

what makes you think that anyone took ever their flats off the vintage P in the first place? isn't that where the funk it?

Seriously- you've got a bass with flats you like the sound of - great, I'm pleased for you. But unless you're willing to sell that bass so other people can appreciated it then why knock what anyone else sticks their flats on? We're all after a decent tone - how we go about it, and how much it costs to get there, doesn't matter.

As another thought..... There's a trend on Basschat at the moment where people knock anyone or any idea that costs a bit more than the cheapest option - it's doing my head in - lets just play the damn things, get excited about stuff and stop getting so hung up about money.
Some cheap Squiers are great. So are some Ritters - get over it. Oh and I don't care what you think of the paint job on barefaced cabs and don't have any strong opinions either way on the beatles.
Yeah it will probably be good for metal too....

[Beedster]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1388619338' post='2324208']
Some cheap Squiers are great. So are some Ritters - get over it. Oh and I don't care what you think of the paint job on barefaced cabs and don't have any strong opinions either way on the beatles.
[/quote]

And that's where this thread - and many others - should conclude

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1388619645' post='2324214']
And that's where this thread - and many others - should conclude
[/quote]
You mean every thread should end on post #84?

Fascinating.

[Beedster]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1388620119' post='2324219']
You mean every thread should end on post #84?

Fascinating.
[/quote]

#83

Although perhaps someone should audit previous threads to determine whether they do in fact peak in the mid 80's (unlike Clapton)?

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1388620444' post='2324223']
#83

Although perhaps someone should audit previous threads to determine whether they do in fact peak in the mid 80's (unlike Clapton)?
[/quote]
Is that the Clapton that's in London? If it is then it peaked in the 70s for me.

[Beedster]

Exactly

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1388620119' post='2324219']
You mean every thread should end on post #84?

Fascinating.
[/quote] or Beedster is saying I should have the last word? I dunno, my other half wouldn't agree with that!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1388605926' post='2323993']
... you can't play slap on them, that they don't work on active basses, and that they have no highs ...
[/quote]

What about the bad points though?

[BetaFunk]

[size=3][b]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2323993"][/url]Beedster, on 01 January 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:[/b][/size][size=3]

... you can't play slap on them, that they don't work on active basses, and that they have no highs ...
[/size]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1388651635' post='2324304']
What about the bad points though?
[/quote]

[Machines]

Are flats any good for metal ?

[muttley]

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1388671622' post='2324578']
Are flats any good for metal ?
[/quote]

I'd try them out but I haven't got the TIM.

[BigRedX]

As others have said, if you have a great playing and looking bass that you want to use and flats give you the sound and feel that you want and like, then why on earth not?

[Dingus]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1388601437' post='2323912']


I read that Ron Wickersham the founder of Alembic that when he developed the Alembic bass electronics he did them n conjunction with flatwound strings. He obviously thought flatwounds were o.k. to put on an expensive bass.

BTW Didn't the first Alembic bass that was made for Jack Casady cost something like $4,000 in 1972?


[/quote]

That's absolutely right. When Alembic were experimenting with their very first custom designs they wee collaborating with Phil Lesh and Jack Cassady, who both favoured Pyramid Gold flatwound strings. Rick Turner who was the chief designer and builder of those basses has gone on record as saying that the unique sound of that particular brand of strings was a major factor in the sound of those basses , as were the Hagstrom Bisonic pickups that Alembic adapted to their own ends. Up until the early Seventies, roundwound strings were mainly a novelty used primarily by British bass players.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1388671622' post='2324578']
Are flats any good for metal ?
[/quote]

I remember seeing Neil Murray ( of Whitesnake , Gary Moore, ect and top hard rock bass player extraordinaire) on Rockschool saying how when he joined Whitesnake he switched from rounds to using flats because their "thud" suited the heavier style of music better than the rounds he had been using previously.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Dingus

[Dingus]

Regarding slapping on flats , it can sound great, albeit in a different and much more muted way to roundwounds. Listen to Chuck Rainey back in the '70's on tracks like "Peg" by Steely Dan.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388675284' post='2324661']
Regarding slapping on flats , it can sound great, albeit in a different and much more muted way to roundwounds. Listen to Chuck Rainey back in the '70's on tracks like "Peg" by Steely Dan.
[/quote]
If you haven't heard this before have a listen to this interview with Chuck Rainey. It's interesting what he has says about the Steely Dan recordings and on slapping.

http://www.insidemusicast.com/musicasts/2009/2/2/chuck-rainey.html

[Dingus]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1388193304' post='2319444']
You know you'll only get a limited sound from flatwound strings, so why not just put them on a cheap passive bass instead of a vintage P?

Here's my thing: I've got a Korean Squier Jazz that I put LaBella 760FLs on, and replaced the tone pot with a push/pull that will put it in series (and replaced the tone cap with a .1uF so it'll do reggae), but yeah, with the tone wide open it's got a genuinely perfect soul tone, can't imagine anything ever sounding any better, and so I wonder: Why does anybody spend so much to get that sound?
[/quote]

In the interest of balance, I can certainly see where you are coming from here.

I grew up thinking of flatwound strings as things that came fitted to old basses that helped make them sound even more crap, and, even though I have moderated that view slightly nowadays, the dull thump that they tend to produce in most instances would indeed seem to the non-aficionado to be a bit of a leveller when it comes to bass tone. However, even though I thought I would never see the day, flats are back in fashion ( so are beards- who could have anticipated that twenty years ago either?) , with some folks at least, and they seem to have some pretty vociferous advocates.

It's a bit much to say they sound the [i]same[/i] on all basses, but I would definitely agree with you that you could probably get a[i] [u]very[/u][/i] acceptable facsimile of that classic Fender-with -flats sound on an inexpensive version of that style of bass, much more so than you could get a version of the Stanley Clarke sound with a cheap generic active bass and roundwounds, for example . That is a pretty reasonable assertion overall, it seems to me. Bear in mind that I can't put this theory to the test because I don't have any flatwounds or indeed any cheap basses, and have no intention of getting any of either, but I am sure a Squire with flats will do that sound perfectly adequately for most needs. But when people buy basses they are usually buying something where mere " adequacy" is not what they are after -the whole industry trades on the idea of excellence rather than plain old sufficiency - and so it's not surprising that most folks gravitate towards something better and get upset when someone challenges the romance of that idea.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1388675827' post='2324670']
If you haven't heard this before have a listen to this interview with Chuck Rainey. It's interesting what he has says about the Steely Dan recordings and on slapping.

[url="http://www.insidemusicast.com/musicasts/2009/2/2/chuck-rainey.html"]http://www.insidemus...uck-rainey.html[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for that. I am listening right now.