"Get one with fret lines"

[Annoying Twit]

Scott Devine strongly advises players to get a fretless bass with lines on them.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKOUdzIYqT4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKOUdzIYqT4[/url]

What do other people think of that advice?

[Adrenochrome]

I can't see the point, you're not supposed to look at the front of the fretboard, just a few dots on the top are more use to me.
Of course he may be right, I'm just an average bassist in a p/t rock band.

[Annoying Twit]

I have had two tries on two fretless basses. One lined, one unlined. In that very small sample, I didn't find they were much different, with the lined being a bit easier. But, the impression I got from those trials was that provided that there was some sort of indication, I'd be able to learn where the notes are.

[BassBus]

Scott Devine is a much better bass player than most of us on here. He should know.

I play both and I prefer lines. They are more accurate, if you have a low action that is. If you like a high action then they might not be as accurate as you have to stretch the string further to 'fret' it. I look at the fingerboard too because I want to get my fingers in the right place as I play a lot up at the dusty end of the fingerboard. Jaco Pastorius looked at his fingerboard when he played and he was a much better player than most of us on here.

There are no shoulds or shouldn'ts when it comes to this. It is very subjective and down to you. Try them both and see which you like. Lots of people say you should play 'one finger one fret'. Dave Marks says "**** that" (I paraphrase). He should know. He is a much better player than most of us on here.

Edited December 2, 2013 by BassBus

[ezbass]

Gary Willis also reckons they're worthwhile (his signature Ibanez has them) as he reckons whatever helps his intonation is worth having.

[Bilbo]

But they are ugly

[BassBus]

So are frets but nobody complains about them.

[JapanAxe]

Although my fretless was something of an impulse purchase I don't think I'd have bought an unlined equivalent. Scott's point is that lines makes it easier to start with, and I agree with that.

[Legion]

I've learnt (using the word very loosely) on an unlined fretless. It's only recently that I tried a lined fretless and I found it horrible to play, kept putting my fingers on the dots when I needed to put them on the lines, but i couldn't see the lines unless I crouch round the bass to look at the fingerboard.

I think it does make intonation more accurate above the 12th fret, but only on the proviso that you stare at the fingerboard all the time. Personally I prefer to just glance at the dots occasionally. I also prefer the look of unlined, and some luthiers feel that a fingerboards rigidity is reduced by sawing fretlines all along its length with a small impact on tonality.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Legion

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1386024366' post='2294871']
So are frets but nobody complains about them.
[/quote]

I meant fretlines are ugly. Frets are ok; fretlines are just vandalism

[Grangur]

Tony Franklin recommends having no lines and just having the dots for the 1, 3, 5, etc.

Me I'm just learning fretless and even if I don't look all the time I like to look occasionally and check how my intonation is going. Yes, I know, my ears should tell me, but I'm not totally at that stage yet.

Mine's got lines and I'm sticking with lines til I find I can find the notes almost every time.

Thanks AT for raising the discussion though.

[lobematt]

I've been a regular freltess player for a few years now and I'm sticking with lines! I use the grid made by the strings and fret(line)s and find myself getting pretty lost without them, whether my notes are in tune or note!

And also, can't believe nobodies said this yet... Jaco had lines...

[Skol303]

I used to play a 'DIY ' fretless with lines but have recently sold it and bought a new purpose-built fretless without - and I really like it.

My intonation needs work but I'm finding the absence of fret lines strangely liberating... And I'm trying out new things as a result.

That's not to say Scott is wrong - he's a nice bloke and a far better bassist than I - but my experience without fretlines has been very positive.

[icastle]

I'm firmly on the fence with this one as I have one of each.

I think the lines were useful for a week or two but then ignored afterwards.

[Beedster]

I've one of each also. I like to flatter myself that I can play fretless in tune, but every time I've picked up one with fretlines I've realised that my ear isn't the great judge I wish it was. This is especially true when recording. I much prefer not to have them, but given the choice of no lines, or of being in tune most if not all of the time, I take the latter.

[ambient]

I like side dots, I played a Warwick a few years ago that had dots on the side where the frets would be, it was a dream to play and the dots were more visible than lines would've been.

I'm getting a new fret less after Christmas and want that unlined but with side dots.

[fatback]

I read an interview some years ago in which Jaco said the lines on his defretted bass were helpful. Worked for him. His reasoning, if I remember, was that whreas on an upright bass the angles between arm and board are pretty well fixed, on the guitar, especially when you're moving around, there's too much changing and you need a visual reference.

I've got both lined and unlined, and I found at the start that the lines helped me develop precision in hand stretching. Really best for playing sitting down, recording etc.

More useful imo is to have correctly positioned side dots. On mass produced basses they're often placed either side of the note, as those basses are essentially defretted (unfretted?). I got mine repositioned and found that very helpful.

I wouldn't worry about 'ugly'. Far more important to play in tune imo.

Edited December 10, 2013 by fatback

[Annoying Twit]

Is it unreasonable to have some sort of subtle Braille dots or lines on the back of the neck. That can be felt, rather than seen. Sort of like the raised dots on computer keyboards to aid touch typists?

[leftyhook]

When I was discussing what I wanted for my 'about-to-be-built' Wal Custom, Pete sked me if I wanted lined or unlined. I wasn't sure ( I was a big Mick Karn fan at the time) so he suggested dark ( low-key brown) inlays, so they were visible to me but not so much to anyone in the audience. I agreed, mainly for more for accuracy in the studio. Worked a treat.

[Beedster]

Old Ibanez FLs have very useful lines at each 'fret' at the top of the board (and one I owned, tiny reference lines under the G also). This is probably what I'm going to have done on my Wazz [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/224386-waljazz-mongrel/unread/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/224386-waljazz-mongrel/unread/[/url]

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1386676692' post='2302886']
Old Ibanez FLs have very useful lines at each 'fret' at the top of the board (and one I owned, tiny reference lines under the G also). This is probably what I'm going to have done on my Wazz [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/224386-waljazz-mongrel/unread/"]http://basschat.co.u...mongrel/unread/[/url]
[/quote]

Excellent - you've saved me having to make the same comment Chris.

These "fret-end markers" are absolutely brilliant, all the advantages of a lined fretless but without the ugly lines.

[fatback]

If you use a thumb pivot with 1234 or 124 and restrict your thumb positions to 3 or 4 (say F#, G, A and B relative to E string), you won't need lines at all. Side markers on the thumb positions will see you right every time. It's a phenomenally accurate method for intonation because you need make very few position shifts, and those you do make are to a limited number of destinations.

I took to this method for learning the upright, but it's produced an amazing improvement in my intonation for fretless bg.

Edited December 10, 2013 by fatback

[leftyhook]

listen with your ears, not your eyes. At least try practicing in the dark. you will be surprised how the mind adapts

[Beedster]

[quote name='leftyhook' timestamp='1386683971' post='2303040']
listen with your ears, not your eyes. At least try practicing in the dark. you will be surprised how the mind adapts
[/quote]

Fair point. However, most of us rehearse to gig or record. Ears, or more accurately the perceptual centres of the brain, become fatigued deceptively quickly, especially in situations in which they are having to work over extended periods or in extreme conditions (e.g., very loud band or hard to hear bass parts). All perceptual organs/processes suffer from fatigue eventually, so of course the same is going to be true of the eyes when looking at fretlines so I'm not saying lines are better per se. I am though suggesting that the more resources you have, the less likely you are to suffer from poor performance, so ears plus eyes will for many people beat ears alone. And unless you've rehearsed it, you can't just assume that on the day you can use the lines, because the lines are not as easy to use as you'd think, as pointed out above, it's very different to DB (my DB intonation is way better than is my FLB intonation bacause the relationship between the instrument, my body and my eyes stays pretty static with DB, it doesn't with FLB). An extremely important thing to remember - and a lesson I learned harshly - is that practicing on an unlined fretless at home in an acoustically easy environment is a very different thing to having to play the same line over and over again in a live recording or on stage with all sorts of competing noise.

It can of course be argued that 'muscle memory' (which doesn't exist but is a useful term to explain learned/automatic brain/motor learning) can certainly be developed as suggested above - that is using ears only in a dark room - but can probably be even better developed using both ears and eyes in a well lit one. However, there's no rights or wrongs, the true test is what works best for you as a player. Don't however do something just because someone - me included - tells you "it's better this way"

Edited December 10, 2013 by Beedster

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1386681998' post='2303003']
If you use a thumb pivot with 1234 or 124 and restrict your thumb positions to 3 or 4 (say F#, G, A and B relative to E string), you won't need lines at all. Side markers on the thumb positions will see you right every time. It's a phenomenally accurate method for intonation because you need make very few position shifts, and those you do make are to a limited number of destinations.

I took to this method for learning the upright, but it's produced an amazing improvement in my intonation for fretless bg.
[/quote]
Where can I find out more about this approach?