The Most Overpriced Bass

[Lowender]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382572058' post='2253954']
But there's only one place in the world that they're made. Does that mean they should move to the middle of nowhere to reduce pricing? Or maybe outsource to China?

I don't think you can compare a mass market product that's available in multi-locations with corresponding multiple price points to a custom built bass guitar that's only available from one place.

Maybe we should be trying to work out what is over-priced relative to geographical location costs and overheads.

Gut feel is it's probably the bottom end of the market where the greatest over-pricing is happening on mass produced, machine made, instruments and not the top where the man hours per bass are huge because of the labour intensive construction and attention to detail that's involved
[/quote]

Newsflash -- ALL basses and guitars are made in part by machines and in part by hand.


And as stated, if you like them, play them. I also think Mercedes are overpriced. But if you want one and can afford one, buy it and enjoy it.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Lowender

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382572058' post='2253954']


But there's only one place in the world that they're made. Does that mean they should move to the middle of nowhere to reduce pricing? Or maybe outsource to China?

I don't think you can compare a mass market product that's available in multi-locations with corresponding multiple price points to a custom built bass guitar that's only available from one place.

Maybe we should be trying to work out what is over-priced relative to geographical location costs and overheads.

Gut feel is it's probably the bottom end of the market where the greatest over-pricing is happening on mass produced, machine made, instruments and not the top where the man hours per bass are huge because of the labour intensive construction and attention to detail that's involved
[/quote]

Not saying that they were adding this cost for no good reason, just clarifying the previous point :-)

I wonder what would happen if the entire Fodera operation had started up in, say Arsend, Kansas, instead of NY. They may have had difficulty getting quality craftspeople out there. Also, their NY workshop seems to be a fine location for people to drop in and see what's going on/try stuff out. Would Kansas Fodera still have (the marketing gold that is) paying endorsers like AJ, MG, VW etc?

[molan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1382577202' post='2253968']
I also think Mercedes are overpriced. But if you want one and can afford one, buy it and enjoy it.
[/quote]

Ah ha, I think I can see where you're coming from now.

From what you've said it sounds, to me anyway, that you think 'expensive' must equal 'over-priced'. I know a lot of people that would agree.

from my perspective Mercedes are probably one of the least over-priced automotive brands in the world. Choose the right one and it will last for 200,000 miles with basic maintenance, still look pretty good at the end of its life and they retain value incredibly well. Once you get over the hurdle of initial purchase cost they are one of the most efficient vehicles to run on a cost per mile covered basis relative to their purchase price.

The simple demonstration of this is that cab drivers all over the world drive them as their first choice car. These aren't guys who are driving Mercs for any sort of flash reason, simply that they do their job really, really, well, are low cost to run and hold value. Just a great, no-brainer, business decision for them.

Definitely expensive but not 'over-priced.

This is how I feel about instruments made by Fodera. They are super-expensive but no-one is deliberately 'over-pricing' them in order to make an extortionate profit. They do what they do really well (many would argue they are without equal), they keep on doing it for a long time (my 30 year old one looked immaculate after years of heavy gigging) and they hold value really well. You're also paying for people who, mostly hand-craft their instruments and don't stick a plank in a machine and watch it spew out the other end. Human labour carries a cost and, to my mind, the world would be a lot sadder place if everything was cheaply mass-produced by machines in a faceless low cost location

For me an instrument made in a large factory that has £50 worth of cheap materials in it that has been chucked in a machine to be spewed out the other end almost completely assembled and then flogged for £300 is 'over-priced' - it's not expensive but the profit margin on it is huge (and you can bet the low-paid workers who pushed the buttons on the machines won't be seeing much of that money either).

[EmmettC]

[sup]I think diminishing returns is probably the point of this thread really.[/sup]

[sup]I work in MI retail too, though we don't really carry anything more expensive than a USA Fender, I often have people say that an American Standard is overpriced, and I see their point, but I have a hard working 72 precision that is still great to play so if you assume the new one is still being gigged in 40 years then it only costs about £26 per year or 50p a week.[/sup]

[sup]The other consderation is tax, the bass itself only costs about £916 the rest goes to the government, so alot of the money you lose if you sell your bass is actually the tax, so the actual devaluation isn't that bad.[/sup]

[sup]Anyway, I think the Custom Shop Dusty Hill Precision is ridiculously overpriced, but it is so beautiful, and if I could afford it I'd buy it.[/sup]

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1382330838' post='2250632']
So how about a Lakland? Mass produced in Asia instead of the USA, shoved in a sh*t gig-bag with nothing in it, same price. But I suppose it isn't as cool to bash a bass that isn't made by Fender.

Not to single Lakland out, there are plenty of other companies that are the same, the mind just boggles at how regularly Fender get singled out for their prices when you look at the number of companies selling Asian made products in crap cases for the same price, if not more at times.
[/quote]

I do agree, and this 'cheap bag' also applies to high end basses and guitars as well.

I agree with Dingus though that the earlier Skyline basses made Fender 'up' their QC (and recently I've seen that it is back down again!).

I've played one of the new MP Made in China Fender Starcasters and the QC was perfect....mental.

I personally think the latest Warwick's (German manufactured) are overpriced. They were £1500 or so a year or two back, now they are about £1000-1500 more!

Edited October 24, 2013 by Musicman20

[Musicman20]

With regards to Fodera, they are like a very expensive watch. You probably won't lose money.

You will however pay a lot for the bass as it is, I guess, their business model to take no compromise. This includes having a place in New York which must be very expensive. I guess this attracts custom, not just from people in the area and people gigging, but its a hot spot for tourists who want to take a detour.

Same with Sadowsky, although the USA Sadowsky basses seem quite value for money when you compare!

Unless I was incredibly well off, I would not risk £10k on one bass. I would rather have 6-7 high end basses. That is because I wouldn't dare touch it! You often hear of these session musicians buying these, so the whole 'woe is me I am a musician and I don't earn very much' doesn't wash with me Plus they never really have a true 'working' week of 50 hours in a very busy office, with incredibly early mornings!


PS - I would never turn down testing or potentially buying a Fodera if I was in the right circs!

Edited October 24, 2013 by Musicman20

[Dingus]

This whole" paying for the cost of being made in NYC " thing is a complete red herring , to be honest with you . Do you honestly think that if Fodera basses were made in rural Idaho or somewhere similar that the final retail price to the customer would be any different ? The reality is that the NYC location probably impacts far more on Fodera's profit margin than on the sale price to the customer . Furthermore , a significant part of what makes those basses what they are is the interaction the company is able to have with New York's top players and the feedback they get from them .

Edited October 24, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1382616183' post='2254420']
I do agree, and this 'cheap bag' also applies to high end basses and guitars as well.

I agree with Dingus though that the earlier Skyline basses made Fender 'up' their QC (and recently I've seen that it is back down again!).

I've played one of the new MP Made in China Fender Starcasters and the QC was perfect....mental.

I personally think the latest Warwick's (German manufactured) are overpriced. They were £1500 or so a year or two back, now they are about £1000-1500 more!
[/quote]

Wow , Warwick . I'd completely forgotten about them ! Overpriced ? That word doesn't really do justice to the kind of money that Warwick are asking for some of their German-made basses nowadays . Sometimes I look at their pricelist to reassure myself that their are at least some other people in this World who are as detatched from reality as myself . Their basses are literally twice the price of what I humbly think they ought to cost for what you are actually getting . Nice basses, but mental .

Edited October 24, 2013 by Dingus

[BigRedX]

And Fodera's "New York" location hardly looks like a prime bit of real estate. It's down by what appears to be docks in Brooklyn, and not even a "trendy" part like Dumbo where Sadowsky used to be based...

[Lowender]

I would add Custom Shop and the Ibanez Prestige to the list. I just don't think they're all that much better than their counterparts at half the price.

So yeah, in the end, if it's more a matter of expense and you find those minute improvements worth the cost, go for it. We all have to draw the line where we're comfortable. I guess what I should have said from the start was that I owned a Fodera and could afford it, and didn't really love it.

Rics are expensive and I have one. I don't NEED it. But I like it because it's like nothing else. I can't justify the cost (though I got a great deal) but it's something that can't be defended or dismissed. It's all preference and these conversations are all just sharing of thoughts.

[Jack]

Rickenbackers and USA Fenders. Paying custom shop, small company, hand-built money for mass-produced basses.

My Fender sees more use in my band, and it's not a bad instrument by any standards, but new there's only a few hundred pounds in the price between that and my Stingray which is twice the bass in terms of materials, fit and finish.

[gsgbass]

I don't know about over priced, but some of the most overlooked basses have to be the G&L's. I had an SB-2 made to my specs for about the going price of a Fender Am. Std.

[risingson]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1382622370' post='2254541']
And Fodera's "New York" location hardly looks like a prime bit of real estate. It's down by what appears to be docks in Brooklyn, and not even a "trendy" part like Dumbo where Sadowsky used to be based...
[/quote]

Give it a few years because Brooklyn round the shirts of Manhattan is about to explode. Any property round there will be worth holding onto.

[peteb]

I can kinda understand why people think that a Fodera is overpriced and I wouldn't pay that much for a bass (especially when you consider that you can get a hand made Xotic for less than a third of the price).

However the best bass that I have ever played was a Fodera...!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1382922278' post='2258105']
I can kinda understand why people think that a Fodera is overpriced and I wouldn't pay that much for a bass (especially when you consider that you can get a hand made Xotic for less than a third of the price).

However the best bass that I have ever played was a Fodera...!
[/quote]

But, an Xotic is not a Fodera. And that's the whole point.

As I've said before, if you just want a stringed instrument to produce low notes, then most people would be perfectly well off with a Squier. But there's more to a good instrument than something that plays and sounds OK. And that something is different for everybody.

And you don't have to be a fantastic player to be able to appreciate what a great custom bass that has been tailored to your needs can do for you. I'm a very average bassist from a technical PoV, but my custom basses are easier and more fun to play. Therefore I play them more often. My playing has certainly improved massively since I stop playing instruments that I had to struggle with.

However once you get to the level of refinement that a good custom bass should be at, it's the details that become important. Just because it's hand -crafted and expensive, doesn't immediately make it the right bass for you. Shuker gets a lot of love in these parts, but I've still to play one that I would want to spend any serious time with. Nothing particularly wrong with the basses, they just don't suit me. However there are plenty of other one that suit me just fine and I'll stick with those until I find something even better...

[Lowender]

I think the entire thread is being seen two ways. One, is if an instrument is worth the cost. In other words, if a Sadowsky is 2% better than a fender but cost 50% more, is it worth it? Is it overpriced? That can be debated endlessly. I think what I really meant to say was that I just don't think Fodera's are all that great. Yeah, well built and exotic wood and all that. But it's like a meal cooked by a world class chef made with truffles, saffron and lobster -- but it doesn't suit you. Who cares if the ingredients are expensive?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Lowender

[CamdenRob]

I bought a squire P bass out of the local paper classifieds when I 13... cost me £50 if I remember rightly. That was the most overpriced bass I've ever encountered.... firewood...

Edited October 29, 2013 by CamdenRob

[molan]

I think these last two posts kinda sum things up - there's a world of difference between overpriced and expensive.

A Fodera is expensive but you're paying for lots of quality materials and an incredibly labour intensive build process.

A rubbish low priced instrument that doesn't even perform its basic function is overpriced because it has virtually zero intrinsic value

[Lowender]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383087184' post='2260162']
I think these last two posts kinda sum things up - there's a world of difference between overpriced and expensive.

A Fodera is expensive but you're paying for lots of quality materials and an incredibly labour intensive build process.

A rubbish low priced instrument that doesn't even perform its basic function is overpriced because it has virtually zero intrinsic value
[/quote]

Actually, no, it isn't about just price. It isn't that the more you spend, the better it gets. Some stuff uses expensive materials or has only two people making basses instead of an assembly line and THAT accounts for higher cost, but doesn't produce a necessarily better sounding instrument.

[leftyhook]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1382182085' post='2248970']
My answer to the original question is US Fenders. How they can justify such a comparatively high price for a factory mass produced instrument is beyond me.
[/quote]
indeed! I have played Squier basses that felt better than some USA Fenders. The mind boggles

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1383057145' post='2259608']
Yeah, well built and exotic wood and all that. But it's like a meal cooked by a world class chef made with truffles, saffron and lobster -- but it doesn't suit you. Who cares if the ingredients are expensive?
[/quote]

i like that. :-)

[Gust0o]

Basschat in "perception is subjective" shocker.

[molan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1383089921' post='2260208']


Actually, no, it isn't about just price. It isn't that the more you spend, the better it gets. Some stuff uses expensive materials or has only two people making basses instead of an assembly line and THAT accounts for higher cost, but doesn't produce a necessarily better sounding instrument.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone has said that the more you spend the better something gets?

All I'm doing is pointing out that there is a significant difference between 'overpriced' as an adjective and 'expensive'.

In simple terms my understanding of overpriced is that something has been deliberately marked/sold at a price well beyond both its intrinsic worth and its functional or aesthetic value.

Expensive is a much more subjective term and open to a far wider interpretation.

My thoughts are that there are quite a few expensive instruments out there but, in most cases, I can understand why they are priced at a high level because of materials and manufacturing costs. Meanwhile there are way more overpriced instruments on the market that have been produced cheaply and then marked up by a significantly higher margin because of 'perceived' value / brand heritage / clever marketing / dealer incentives etc. etc.

[pierreganseman]

And another senseless thread about Fodera being worth it or not bla bla bla.....

They sell every basses available within hours..

And the standards all sold out within hours too..... bla bla bla...

must be doing something right......

I owned 4, not for me in the end.... maybe one day a full on custom tailored for me.... but not quite yet ;-)

[Dingus]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1383132792' post='2260518']
I don't think anyone has said that the more you spend the better something gets?

All I'm doing is pointing out that there is a significant difference between 'overpriced' as an adjective and 'expensive'.

In simple terms my understanding of overpriced is that something has been deliberately marked/sold at a price well beyond both its intrinsic worth and its functional or aesthetic value.

Expensive is a much more subjective term and open to a far wider interpretation.

My thoughts are that there are quite a few expensive instruments out there but, in most cases, I can understand why they are priced at a high level because of materials and manufacturing costs. Meanwhile there are way more overpriced instruments on the market that have been produced cheaply and then marked up by a significantly higher margin because of 'perceived' value / brand heritage / clever marketing / dealer incentives etc. etc.
[/quote]
[quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1383133816' post='2260530']
And another senseless thread about Fodera being worth it or not bla bla bla.....

They sell every basses available within hours..

And the standards all sold out within hours too..... bla bla bla...

must be doing something right......

I owned 4, not for me in the end.... maybe one day a full on custom tailored for me.... but not quite yet ;-)
[/quote]

Yes, there are a lot of people who get very confused with the relative rhetorical standpoints of" expensive" versus "costs too much ". Some people might think that Foderas cost too much - that is their prerogative- but that is never based on a genuine understanding of what it actually takes to manufacture one of these basses.

One of the beauties of Fodera as a company is that you can go to them and describe what you want in terms of performance and sound and more than likely they will be able to build that abstract concept into an actual finished bass for you . That is a major reason why so many top players favour them as builders . Knowledge and experience like that never comes cheap , especially when it is committed to working with top class materials and the best possible construction techniques. With musical instruments choices and preferences being so subjective , it's not surprising their basses will suit some people better than others, and the results of someone else's custom build may be the antithesis of what the next player envisages as his or her ideal . None of that equates to Fodera being overpriced , though .

If Lowender says he was dissatisfied with his Fodera then I believe him . I would be dissatisfied with one ,too, , not least of because I don't want one . It sounds like he didn't want one either and made an error in purchasing one in the first place, but it's a huge leap of the imagination to extrapolate from his dissatisfaction and apparent sense of dissillusionment that Foderas and, by implication, other expensive basses are not "worth it". Worth to whom in what circumstances? It depends what you like and what you want , and if you like certain things done in a certain way then you are going to have to pay a lot of money for that .

The revelation that if you plug in a very expensive bass and play it that it doesn't actually sound that different to certain mass-produced basses is not much of a revelation at all to anyone with much experience of these things . A decent Fender Jazz , for example, sounds as good as a Fodera , and might even be preferable depending on the sound you are after in any given situation . But does that mean that Foderas are a con trick, or for the naive , gullable or inexperienced ? No it does not . If you have certain specific relatively esoteric requirements then Fodera can fulfill those for you . If you don't have those requirements then a Fodera may well not be for you.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Dingus