When Is a Bass Worth it?

[Lowender]

This is an interesting time for guitar and bass. The mystery has been solved! They aren't rocket ships. They're wood and electronics and the parts aren't very expensive.

Custom builders will say that they hand make their basses. Well, that is true -- to an extent. But guess what...ALL basses are made in part by hand. And ALL basses are made in part by machine.

Attention to detail? Hmmm...perhaps. Though I've played some very high basses that were dogs as I'm sure many here have.

And here's the thing -- these days, the tool are so superior and by shipping the labor to Indonesia and China, the cost of making a fine instrument does not , nor should not be that high.

Only in the most low end market is there a big difference in quality. Once it gets to a certain point, a bass is as good as a bass can be. It's just a matter of what you like.

So which budget basses are great and which are garbage?

Personally, I find the SR 500 Ibanez basses to be extraordinary -- as good as anything out there. So why get a Ibanez that's just a little less expensive?

I feel the VM Squiers are cheap basses. But for a few pounds more you can have a CV, which is as good as any Fender other than an american standard from a good year. The custom shop is just an AS with hype.

Music Man came out with the Ray line and they matched the original in quality. Now there's a SUB series for even less and THEY are every bit as good. It's actually quite ridiculous.

So has everything changed? Are super expensive basses a thing of the past? I appreciate the dedication Luthiers have for their craft but why should I have to spend all that money on someone's personal carpentry hobby?

Is there a future for elite instruments or are we looking at a future where instruments will be like TV's? Far better and far cheaper.

[4 Strings]

Until recently would have gone along with this viewpoint, being entirely satisfied with a Stingray. I have even inwardly mildly scorned custom made basses, is that player's art so unique he needs a specially made instrument?

However, having spent a bit of time at a luthier (Heath at Ruach), I have surprised myself by ordering one. It's to my own design, has the most amazing piece of flamed, quartersawn maple for the neck and lovely, single piece of sycamore for the body. It will be a 'utility bass', nothing flash nor coffee table but made with the best materials we could find and for around the same or less cost than a new MM or US Fender.

One of the drivers was the weight of my HH Stingray, it weighed a ton, and then being a little dissatisfied with the way the neck grain ran on more recently made basses, seemed like they were just shoved in the machine whichever way up they came. The grain was all over the place on that MM and also on a latter day US Jazz I had. Not sure how important this really is, but seeing how it can be carried out with care and skill suddenly made me dissatisfied with my current bass.

Definitely not for everyone, but the design and selection process has been far more fun and satisfying than just buying off the peg.

[Grangur]

Interesting OP. With my, admittedly limited, experience I would agree. It would seem to me that 4 Strings is also not disagreeing, but pointing out another angle, which is he's happy to pay a premium for a reduction is weight from his HH Stingray and to get good wood selection.

The wood selection can make a difference to the stability of the bass and it's resistance to movement in the wood (but this shouldn't be a problem if the wood is properly seasoned) but what he's talking about is largely aesthetics; much of which is irrelevant if, like a lot of instruments, the whole thing gets 3 coats of paint and 3mm of lacquer (I may exaggerate here).

This idea in the OP endorses what a lot of players here seem to do: buy a Squire or similar, with it's good solid body, neck and construction, fit a good bridge, pups to taste and a new pick guard and you've an instrument to your preference for a budget price.

Why pay a premium for an AS and then STILL rip out the pups and fit something marginally different.

That said, my Warwick Streamer beats my Squier and my Fender hands down for light weight, easy of action, playability, tone.... etc

Or is it me and my snob value?

[W11ATO]

I think both posts are absolutely true.

Man will never be as accurate as a CNC machine but then the machine won't go searching through the wood store for the best peice of timber.

I totally agree that once a bass or guitar gets to a certain standard (or cost), say £600 or £700, there's going to be very little more that could be done to make it tangibly better.

The only reference/experience I have is with Overwaters, I own 2 Perception Deluxes which are circa £2300 new and very fine instruments indeed, i also have an Aspiration Elite ( one of the tanglewood S Korean jobs) and there is very very little difference in either build quality, finish or tone.

But for sure, the thrill of ordering a custom build is way greater than walking into a shop and asking for "that one", but how much more is that thrill worth?

And what about snob value, if we're honest, there's a bit of that involved too?

[Phil Adams]

Clearly a lot depends on the player's level. It would certainly take me a long time to discern any difference between models, and for me it would simply be a case of personal preference. Subtle differences in tone and action would probably be lost on me. I'm sure I could tell you which one I preferred but probably couldn't say why.
I'd probably be scared to play a £2000 bass, and that would affect my playing anyway.

[uncle psychosis]

Expensive handmade instruments will never die out, because musicians are by and large a conservative bunch. Concert violinists don't buy expensive antique instruments because they're better than modern equivalents, they buy them because of the kudos of owning one and because they are expected to. Similarly there are enough bassists out there who will never accept that you don't need to go hand built in order to get a top level instrument.

[ead]

Interesting stuff.

I admit to being a convert to the 'hand made' bass, and in respect of this thread my personal frame of reference is the ACG Graft bass (the basic spec). Still made by hand but to more limited options and choices. The come in around £800 or so for a Jazz type passive bass and imho are extremely good value when compared to the something like the American Standard Fender range that is still pretty much a mass produced bass that seems to retail for c. £1k.

I appreciate that the full custom basses are a bit marmite and so live and let live on these, very much a personal choice. I have also enjoyed really affordable basses like a £110 Antoria Jazz which was really good (but really heavy sadly) so very much appreciate the other side of the argument.

It's great that there is so much choice around these days and hopefully all bassists can find and enjoy an instrument that fits their budget large or modest.

[Lowender]

I've been at this a long time and I can tell the difference between basses, though that doesn't mean the difference is one sided. Not long ago, I've played on a track a with a Fodera and a Squier and the opinion of the composer, the engineer and myself is that the Squier sounded better.

As for the snob appeal -- here ya go: [url="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#.UhcXSeDLhh8"]http://blogs.discove...s/#.UhcXSeDLhh8[/url]

Edited August 23, 2013 by Lowender

[BigRedX]

Basses are worth what the manufacturer/luthier thinks they can charge against what the player is prepared to spend.

There is a common misconception amongst many players that all basses are interchangeable. Maybe in the sub £100 Fender copy market they are. After that they are all individual some will suit a particular plat some will not. Price is rarely directly proportional to the skill level of a player or the suitability of the bass to them.

If all you want is a solid stringed instrument to play low notes on then surely an SX or a Sue Ryder will be perfectly adequate? If you want something a bit more personal then it all gets completely subjective.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1377242773' post='2185127']
I've been at this a long time and I can tell the difference between basses, though that doesn't mean the difference is one sided. Not long ago, I've played on a track a with a Fodera and a Squier and the opinion of the composer, the engineer and myself is that the Squier sounded better.

As for the snob appeal -- here ya go: [url="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/#.UhcXSeDLhh8"]http://blogs.discove...s/#.UhcXSeDLhh8[/url]
[/quote]

There's also inverse-snob appeal. Just as strong IMO.

[skej21]

I agree to an extent. I've had all sorts of basses and went with the theory of 'swap til I find a keeper' and soon found that Japanese Fenders are what I like. Build quality is far superior to every Mex/US Fender I've played, including custom shops.

However, I'm under no illusion that its more likely that that is a personal preference and not actual fact. I believe it's hard to be truly objective in this kind of discussion.

[Lowender]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377244008' post='2185141']
There's also inverse-snob appeal. Just as strong IMO.
[/quote]

Not at all. I'm just stating the facts. I WANTED to believe my Fodera was superior and had to face the reality that it simply did not sound as good as a much cheaper bass. I can afford a Music Man. I HAVE a Music Man. But I have to admit, the SUB sounds and plays every bit as good.

As mentioned in my OP, there are cheap basses that just aren't worth it when for a little more you can get something very good these days. And the double blind test where people chose the new violin to the Stratvarious was hardly inverse snobbery. If anything, I'm sure they were a bit embarassed by it. And they PLAYED them.

If you were just hearing a bass I doubt most bass players could tell the difference between a Sadowsky and a good Fender.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Lowender

[4 Strings]

Most of us are, without doubt, a conservative lot. Snob value will continue as long as we judge a player by his bass. I hate myself for doing it but I know if I go to a gig and the mandatory gear scan shows a Squier I have pre-judged the bass player as a beginner. I also know that once the band start playing I I would mostly find it difficult to tell from the sound what type of bass it is let alone whether it's from the budget range or, more still, whether the neck is quartersawn.

Do I consider that if they took their playing seriously enough they would (waste money unnecessarily and) buy an expensive model? This may be a watered down version of how violinists consider a soloist without a two hundred year old instrument.

But, however workaday our approach to gigs we don't buy basses for the audience's satisfaction but our own. As long as we can afford and want the better we will always be on the subconscious lookout for something different/better and when that gets presented our reduced satisfaction for the current bass means we'll be tempted to at least consider it. Different/better may be older, more used, newer, mint, nice colour, exactly the same colour as many others (how many fans of sunburst/tort Fenders are there?) etc, more strings, whatever is floating our boat at the time.

Even if we don't personify our basses (I don't, many do - calling it 'she' or even a name) I believe they become too personal to be considered as mass produced and characterless as tv. Even owners of mass produced Fenders et al like to consider they have a 'good one', one that is individual in some way - and they may have.

Edited August 23, 2013 by 4 Strings

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1377246205' post='2185171']
If you were just hearing a bass I doubt most bass players could tell the difference between a Sadowsky and a good Fender.
[/quote]

Or a cheap one.

[Lowender]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377246712' post='2185185']
Most of us are, without doubt, a conservative lot. Snob value will continue as long as we judge a player by his bass. I hate myself for doing it but I know if I go to a gig and the mandatory gear scan shows a Squier I have pre-judged the bass player. Once they start playing I definitely know I would mostly find it difficult to tell from the sound what bass it is let alone whether it's from the budget range or, more still, whether the neck is quartersawn. Do I consider that if they took their playing seriously enough they would (waste money unnecessarily and) buy an expensive model?

But, however workaday our approach to gigs we don't buy basses for the audience's satisfaction but our own as they won't tell the difference. As long as we can afford and want the best we will always be on the subconscious lookout for something different/better and when that gets presented our reduced satisfaction for the current bass means we'll be tempted to at least consider it. Different/better may be older, more used, newer, mint, nice colour, exactly the same colour as many others (how many fans of sunburst/tort Fenders are there?) etc, whatever is floating our boat at the time.

Even if we don't personify our basses (I don't, many do - calling it 'she' or even a name) I believe they become too personal to be considered as mass produced and characterless as tv. Even owners of mass produced Fenders et al like to consider they have a 'good one'.
[/quote]

I agree completely. I have a vintage P and a Ric and love them to death and would never want to e without them because they are special to me. I don't have them in the hope the audience will like them, I play them because I want to, and for that reason hopefully the audience will like what I do.

But just as I'm aware that people will judge you for using what is considered a "hobbyist" instrument (I put a Fender decal on my Squier -- so sue me, I don't feel like explaining to anyone why I prefer a Squier) I think one can be judged by using a boutique instrument. I think coffee table basses look like you're trying too hard. I find most pros are okay with stock instruments. I went though my boutique stage when I was up and coming and thought I deserved something really good. Now that I' m a better player I don't have the need to make that statement. I play what I like.

[Bilbo]

Just an aside but where double basses are concerned, a 'better' bass is not necessarily a better bass. A lot of classical double basses would be no use to a jazzer and vice versa. The needs are different.'Cheap' sounding instruments can be the very fellows if you want to sound a prticular way. a lot of guitar bands use things like Fender Jaguars, 'nasty' instruments that are not 'good' in the conventional sense but perfect for the job. A growly double bass can be EXACTLY what one jazzer wants and exactly what another doesn't. The build process can, in these cases, be academic.

[winterfire666]

when is a bass worth it? sometimes it just is.
im of the school that you dont really need to pay more than say £500-600 for a high quality instrument, and while i can appreciate the asthetics of stupidly expensive woods and such i like a bass to be playable and i dont want to be scared of damaging it in the name of a good performance.

however, my all time favorite bass is my old vester argus, it had great low action, it has distinctive looks and great tone but its not well balanced (sat down or stood up) its a heavy beast making long sets tiresome and its getting on now too. it does mean a lot to me though, in a time when i had little cash due to bieng a student i saw it in he shop and knew i couldnt afford it, in the end my mother put up the cash (mums are awesome). recently i have retired my vester due to the weight issues and the achievable action isnt what it once was.
just under 2 years ago my mother passed away of cancer aged only 50, she always supported my love of music and with the money left to me i decieded to get something to remind me of her and something that she would have approved of, that i could also pass on to my children too.
and so i ordered my xylem custom build, its going to be everything that my vester should have been with no comprimises and a tribute.
i choose xylem because i think the basses he produces stand out from the pack and the carving style will compliment the vester shape and style perfectly. there was no price limit on this (and i genuinely never thought i would do that) and this bass will never be for sale.
Its funny how my outlook on customs has changed and even though it has and i will cherish my new bass when it arrives i wont be teating it with kid gloves, its gonna get played, and any dings, marks, scratches it picks up along the way will be just another reminder of what it means to me.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='W11ATO' timestamp='1377240960' post='2185106']

And what about snob value, if we're honest, there's a bit of that involved too?
[/quote]

More than a bit, I'd say.

A custom bass won't make you a better player and with all the tone controls available these days won't make you sound any better either ( well, no more than a vastly expensive unobtainium bass lead anyway).

A personalised number plate won't make you a better driver but it will make a certain type of person happier. There are no absolute rules, we're free to pick and choose ( assuming we can afford to do so) and there will always be skilled people willing to create bespoke items for those who want them, whether it's a bespoke suit, shoes, shotgun, kitchen or any number of other things.

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1377249434' post='2185224']
A custom bass won't make you a better player and with all the tone controls available these days won't make you sound any better either...
[/quote]

This is true, but it [i]can [/i]make you a more confident player, which in turn [i]could [/i]lead to you being a better player.

[winterfire666]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377250159' post='2185237']
This is true, but it [i]can [/i]make you a more confident player, which in turn [i]could [/i]lead to you being a better player.
[/quote]

this :^) and even if your playing doesnt improve, your performance can.

[Jellyfish]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1377249434' post='2185224']
A custom bass won't make you a better player and with all the tone controls available these days won't make you sound any better either
[/quote]

Then why do professionals use Fodera's?

[discreet]

[quote name='Jellyfish' timestamp='1377250641' post='2185244']
Then why do professionals use Fodera's?
[/quote]

Why do premiership footballers drive Bentleys?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377250159' post='2185237']
This is true, but it [i]can [/i]make you a more confident player, which in turn [i]could [/i]lead to you being a better player.
[/quote]

Fair point, if you're already the sort of person that needs a bit of a self-esteem boost. Presumably personalised plates do much the same thing for some people.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377246712' post='2185185']
Most of us are, without doubt, a conservative lot. Snob value will continue as long as we judge a player by his bass. I hate myself for doing it but I know if I go to a gig and the mandatory gear scan shows a Squier I have pre-judged the bass player as a beginner.
[/quote]

Interesting...I've noticed a trend for distinctly second-rate bassists who play Fender Jazzes. Obviously I've seen plenty of absolute masters playing Fender J's, but I think there's a correlation with how juvenile their beard looks. It's as if the flowchart is:

Fender Jazz?
Yes
Beard?
Yes
Quality of beard?
Poor/clearly just started shaving/f***ing hipster --> Probably just bought the Jazz because someone convinced them it was "boutique" and/or looks less "mainstream" than a P (or something, I don't know how these pillocks think). Can't actually play the damn thing; too busy posing and looking "ironic" with it.

Edited August 23, 2013 by EliasMooseblaster

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1377250930' post='2185247']
Presumably personalised plates do much the same thing for some people.
[/quote]

Not sure if personalised plates could make you a good driver - in fact the kind of person who buys a personalised plate is likely to be the opposite in my humble experience - but I take your point.