Am I just a thick bass thumper?

[Jazzneck]

So.........
Having spent some money to find a bass and amp that gives me "my sound" i.e. the sound that I want and the band is happy with, what happens when we play a big gig and I get split between the back line and FOH PA?
To my mind, what comes out FOH is my bass instrument with the tone set by the "engineer", the PA mixer desk, PA amp and PA speakers and monitors.
This is not "my sound" - the one I produce up on stage with my bass and amp - or am I wrong?

The thing that triggered this question a few years ago was when we played up at the big Blues Festival in Burnley.
Main Stage at The Mechanics and I was told not to worry as back line would be supplied.
On arrival I found I had the choice of SVT through 8x10, Trace Elliot or Marshall. I opted for Ampeg as this is what I normally use (albeit a V4BH through a 4x10).
We set up, sound checked, sounded great on stage (monitors were a bit thin) and our set went down really well.
However, when staying on to watch the other bands, it was very noticeable to me that whoever they were, whatever they were playing, whatever rig was used, the bass sounded the same out of the PA.
We had a laid back discussion in the green room later in the day and came to the conclusion that bassists are usually f*cked at a big gig when it comes to getting their own sound out there.
Am I just a thick bass thumper or is there something in my thinking?

[Lozz196]

Welcome to the world of playing bass through FOH. All of the other members of the band have "their" sound through FOH as invariably they are miked, vocals, drums, guitar etc, all have a mic. Whereas basses get DI`d - and more often than not through a DI box before the amp, so all that goes to FOH is the sound of the bass itself. Or the request will be if DI`d from the amp, pre-eq.

There`s no real answer to this, as we`re at the mercy of the sound-men who will get a workable bass sound as quickly as possible, as unfortunately the bass is seen as not needing its own sound by many people, just a generic background sound.

[mike257]

On multi-band gigs, its pretty standard for the engineer to DI directly from the bass - it'll still sound like you, playing your bass and a good engineer will be looking at that sound in the context of the whole mix and doing his best to make it complement everything around it.

Bear in mind that on these kind of shows there's a limited soundcheck and changeover time, so there's only so much you can do with the restrictions available to you. When I've played bigger shows and had my own engineer then we've put a mic on the cab as well and used a blend of the two out front but that's a luxury and not the norm.

[The Dark Lord]

It really does depend how much "clout" you have in the situation. If you are Sting, Lemmy, Macca or Roger Waters etc ...... you can employ your own FOH guy who must do what YOU say or he/she is fired.

More often than not, you won't have that clout - so you can politely suggest to the FOH engineer that your particular sound is important to the band - and hope that he will work with you.

He may well have a standard way that HE likes to hear bass - and knows how to twiddle his knobs to get there.

It's the way of The World.

Edited July 4, 2013 by The Dark Lord

[Lee Carter]

I often work as an engineer and I always try to take the DI from the amp post-eq. It's close but the cabs colour the sound and you won't get that on a DI.

Try to make the engineers life as easy as possible and they will love you for it, if you want the cab miked invest in a good cab mic and lead, and let the Eng know you have it. Any bassist that presents me with the gear they wish to use gets to use it. On multi-band nights it tends to be kit share anyway so it's still a set up once affair.

It is possible to get your sound, but be the engineers friend, it helps.

[Guest MoJo]

I watched a band play at a very well known music venue in the West Midlands. The bass player for the support band was giving it his all, really going for it. It must've sounded great up on stage, but all his intricate licks and runs were lost as, all that came out of the FOH was a muddy mess. The headlining band Dressed To Kill came on (with our very own Gary (Cetera) doing his bit as Gene Simmons) and the bass tone was loud, clear with that Demon growl that Mr.Simmons loves. Chalk and cheese

[xilddx]

Go direct via a POD or whatever. Amps are a waste of time

[geoffbyrne]

I've been considering going into my MXR-80+, thence to desk plus taking a secondary line out to a smallish cab & head as an on-stage monitor.

I wonder what an engineer would do if I just turned up with my bass & the MXR-80? Do the foldback speakers handle tha\t sort of thing?

G.

[Truckstop]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372942008' post='2131899']
Go direct via a POD or whatever. Amps are a waste of time
[/quote]

Plus one. Try and get one with a speaker sim; takes away the brittleness of a dry DI signal. Use your backline as a monitor.

Truckstop

[mike257]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1372942472' post='2131902']
I've been considering going into my MXR-80+, thence to desk plus taking a secondary line out to a smallish cab & head as an on-stage monitor.

I wonder what an engineer would do if I just turned up with my bass & the MXR-80? Do the foldback speakers handle tha\t sort of thing?

G.
[/quote]

Depends on the venue Geoff - if it's got a fairly decent monitor setup with individual wedge mixes across the front you'll be fine. I mixed a three band bill the other week where nobody arrived with a bass amp (the fourth band, touring headliners, had agreed to provide it but pulled out of the show at last minute due to illness - that's why I never travel without all my gear!!). Just used a standard DI box for all three bands, cranked the bass in their wedge and it was fine. Sounded great in the mix and all three were happy on stage. It was a smallish room and it does benefit from having some bass coming from the stage but can get by fine without it.

[geoffbyrne]

We played at The Ferry in Glasgow last Saturday. It's a new band for me & the venue is reputed to have an excellent PA & engineer.

Turned out we had no foldback, which did cause a bit of an oops in one number. Since it's a place this band (Blue Devils) seems to play fairly regularly, I'd like to give the above a try. Also saves my poor old 5-stent heart the hassle of carrying big gear.



G.

[mike257]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1372943005' post='2131912']
We played at The Ferry in Glasgow last Saturday. It's a new band for me & the venue is reputed to have an excellent PA & engineer.

Turned out we had no foldback, which did cause a bit of an oops in one number. Since it's a place this band (Blue Devils) seems to play fairly regularly, I'd like to give the above a try. Also saves my poor old 5-stent heart the hassle of carrying big gear.



G.
[/quote]

Don't know how it's got a rep for a great PA if there's no foldback! If you've got a wedge mix at your side of the stage I think you'll be fine - there's also the question of how much of you the rest of the band need to hear.

I've mixed (and played) gigs with no bass amp plenty times and if (the big if!) the PA can support it out front and on stage there's no reason why it won't be fine. When I was travelling to venues I wasn't familiar with I always put my rig in the van though, even if an amp share had been promised, and that saved my skin more than a few times. I wouldn't depend on it unless you're confident the venue can support your requirements, otherwise you're stuffed if something goes wrong.

[JTUK]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1372942472' post='2131902']
I've been considering going into my MXR-80+, thence to desk plus taking a secondary line out to a smallish cab & head as an on-stage monitor.

I wonder what an engineer would do if I just turned up with my bass & the MXR-80? Do the foldback speakers handle tha\t sort of thing?

G.
[/quote]

You need to know the spec of the P.A..and how many mixes they have to give.

If you turn up with just a Di feed, then you are at the mercy of the engr giving you back a sound.
The FOH would be taken care of..you'd hope.

Would I turn up at a gig with a P.A and engr I don't know without a backline... Not a chance ...!!!
How much volume does the band need onstage...?? will your monitoring cover it...?
Is the drummer..or anyone else happy playing against nothing..if they can't hear you..?
How do you expect to sound good in this case anyway..?

Music is all about ears and hearing... so the musicians need to hear it.. IME.

[eddiehoffmann]

Happiness is a talented trusted sound man That's all.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1372943312' post='2131914']
Don't know how it's got a rep for a great PA if there's no foldback! If you've got a wedge mix at your side of the stage I think you'll be fine - there's also the question of how much of you the rest of the band need to hear.

I've mixed (and played) gigs with no bass amp plenty times and if (the big if!) the PA can support it out front and on stage there's no reason why it won't be fine. When I was travelling to venues I wasn't familiar with I always put my rig in the van though, even if an amp share had been promised, and that saved my skin more than a few times. I wouldn't depend on it unless you're confident the venue can support your requirements, otherwise you're stuffed if something goes wrong.
[/quote]

There were 4 foldback monitors across the front of the stage, Mike, and none were operating. Now I have a bit of experience, I'll know what to ask for the next time.

G.

Edited July 4, 2013 by geoffbyrne

[thisnameistaken]

Most* sound guys just want to get the night over with and go home, the last thing they care about is what the bass sounds like, that's why they'll spend an hour EQing the drums and probably under a minute on the bass. Even if you do get a post-EQ signal out to the desk most guys will pull out most of your signal anyway.

Sadly most sound guys are rockers, and they're used to the bass sound in rock bands, so they think your role is purely to make the guitar sound bigger. In reality most bands have hopeless plodding bass players anyway so their beliefs are reinforced daily. Good luck getting anything better out of them.

* I did say 'most'.

[chris_b]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1372940739' post='2131869']
....I watched a band play at a very well known music venue in the West Midlands. The bass player for the support band was giving it his all, really going for it. It must've sounded great up on stage, but all his intricate licks and runs were lost as, all that came out of the FOH was a muddy mess. The headlining band Dressed To Kill came on (with our very own Gary (Cetera) doing his bit as Gene Simmons) and the bass tone was loud, clear with that Demon growl that Mr.Simmons loves. Chalk and cheese....
[/quote]

I'm not sure why you are surprised about that.

Sad fact; the support band are the only ones who care about the support band!

The desk will be set up for the main band. They bring the punters in and will be take 99% of the FOH guy's time and effort.

C'est la vie.

[Lee Carter]

I'm glad you said most ;-)

[chris_b]

....on the other hand, I mostly get a good sound out of the sound guy's I encounter, because I say hi, chat about them, the venue and the sound.

And, more importantly, I suppose, I just use a simple fat bass sound.

All the sound guy's seem to manage that with ease.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1372953500' post='2132097']
Most* sound guys just want to get the night over with and go home, the last thing they care about is what the bass sounds like, that's why they'll spend an hour EQing the drums and probably under a minute on the bass. Even if you do get a post-EQ signal out to the desk most guys will pull out most of your signal anyway.

Sadly most sound guys are rockers, and they're used to the bass sound in rock bands, so they think your role is purely to make the guitar sound bigger. In reality most bands have hopeless plodding bass players anyway so their beliefs are reinforced daily. Good luck getting anything better out of them.

* I did say 'most'.
[/quote]

Utter bollocks.

[Lozz196]

The thing for me is re this issue, does the band sound good, whatever is done to the bass? If yes, then I`m happy. Whilst I`d prefer to have my sound, it`s unlikely in the couple of mins or so that the bass is sound-checked that it will be obtained, so I tell the sound-man that I use an old-school thumpy type sound. The other bassist then advises that he has a twangy type sound. It gives an idea of what to aim for, and importantly, that each bass has a separate/different sound. From there, the sound-man usually gives a feed into the monitors, and we can get an approximate. With the amount of time that`s usually available, I`d prefer the majority was spent on the vocals, getting a good presence FOH, and getting enough of them in the monitors. It`s the singer that sells the band, not me. I won`t speak for the other bassist, he may be of the opinion it`s him who sells the band (though I doubt it ).

[gjones]

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1372936222' post='2131785']
So.........
Having spent some money to find a bass and amp that gives me "my sound" i.e. the sound that I want and the band is happy with, what happens when we play a big gig and I get split between the back line and FOH PA?
To my mind, what comes out FOH is my bass instrument with the tone set by the "engineer", the PA mixer desk, PA amp and PA speakers and monitors.
This is not "my sound" - the one I produce up on stage with my bass and amp - or am I wrong?

The thing that triggered this question a few years ago was when we played up at the big Blues Festival in Burnley.
Main Stage at The Mechanics and I was told not to worry as back line would be supplied.
On arrival I found I had the choice of SVT through 8x10, Trace Elliot or Marshall. I opted for Ampeg as this is what I normally use (albeit a V4BH through a 4x10).
We set up, sound checked, sounded great on stage (monitors were a bit thin) and our set went down really well.
However, when staying on to watch the other bands, it was very noticeable to me that whoever they were, whatever they were playing, whatever rig was used, the bass sounded the same out of the PA.
We had a laid back discussion in the green room later in the day and came to the conclusion that bassists are usually f*cked at a big gig when it comes to getting their own sound out there.
Am I just a thick bass thumper or is there something in my thinking?
[/quote]

You're lucky! I played The Great British R&B festival in Colne in 2012 and there was no bass! I played through the worlds quietest Ampeg SVT and 8x10 and couldn't hear a thing on stage. I listened to the other bands and the bass players could have been miming, because I couldn't hear a thing they were playing. We obtained a recording of our live set straight from the desk.....and you guessed it......no bass. The venue was a huge warehouse type thing which would have made it hard to get a good bass sound. But NO bass through the PA! The sound engineer must have been deaf.

Edited July 5, 2013 by gjones

[peteb]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1372981644' post='2132566']


You're lucky! I played The Great British R&B festival in Colne in 2012 and there was no bass! I played through the worlds quietest Ampeg SVT and 8x10 and couldn't hear a thing on stage. I listened to the other bands and the bass players could have been miming, because I couldn't hear a thing they were playing. We obtained a recording of our live set straight form the desk.....and you guessed it......no bass. The venue was a huge warehouse type thing which would have made it hard to get a good bass sound. But NO bass through the PA! The sound engineer must have been deaf.
[/quote]
I played the same festival (the British Stage, some sort of sports centre I believe) with what sounds like exactly the same rig!

I am told it sounded great out front (bass and all) but we couldn't hear a f***in thing! The monitor engineer told us that he would sort out everything thru the foldback, but he just didn't bother!

The trials and tribulations of being a support act on a multi band bill...

Edited July 4, 2013 by peteb

[chris_b]

Thanks for the heads-up guys.

I'm on the British Stage this year.

I'll be on the look out for problems.