Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I have been (mostly) playing Jazz now since about 1985. THe level of gigging has gone from minimal (4 or 5 a year) to overwhelming (120 a year). With some rare exceptions, the bands have not been rehearsed and, in many cases, have included people I have rarely played with. Most of the tunes I have played most of the time have been things I am only superficially aware of and I have been reading chord charts and improvising around sequences the knowledge of which is, at best, peripheral. Some of these charts are going past like s*** off a stick and there are lots of strange symbols and extensions designed purely to humiliate me. A lot of the work I have done is massively flawed and I deeply admire those players who can make something beautiful out of a sequence that, by its very nature, puts rocks in your path. I don't consider myself to be one of those players. I can find my way around a basic standard but lob in a few slash chords, some obscure harmony and I am easily thrown. I can usually figure out a way through, given time, but, because most of the gigs I do don't allow for that level of preparation, that time is mostly after the fact. Playing Jazz, as an improvising Art form, is a high risk undertaking. I was wondering, therefore, given all the above 'environmental factors', why I think it is EVER going to be anything but grimly inadequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Grimley adequate is relative.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 as is grimley inadequate.. It is quite possible for some people to throw together a unit ( literally ) and blast the place.. at a level that some bands that have been going for years, couldn't get close to. It is what it is... and you know all this anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Good afternoon, Bilbo... One of my favourite old saws; this applies to many walks of life, but is especially appropriate here... 'It's the first 40 years that are the hardest, after which things get (slightly...) better..." ...for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I almost pride myself on making a noise that sounds like jazz from a distance, but wouldn't stand close inspection. Its more of an atmosphere than music. I get paid far more if there is nobody really listening - I'm also amazed at how long it took me to realise and accept that. It works for me...at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1367578533' post='2067112'] and you know all this anyway. [/quote] I do; I am just trying to give myself permission to be crap and happy at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Bet the audience don't even notice your mistakes, Bilbo. You will because you care and want to do it right. I have heard it said before, that there aren't many notes that are wrong in jazz. If you are now doing 120 gigs a year you must be doing something right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 After playing bass for 25 years and thinking I was a competent player I started playing jazz about 5 years ago. I feel like I'm standing in a valley looking up at a very high mountain and I've only climbed about 10 feet of it so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1367579743' post='2067134'] I have heard it said before, that there aren't many notes that are wrong in jazz. [/quote] I seem to manage to find the suckers, though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 If you are playing 120 gigs a year with guys at a high level, you are going to be improving dramatically without even realising it! You must be doing something right to get the work in the first place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I am a jazz fan and I can play it, but I find that style and discipline very absorbing and you have to commit yourself to it to be of a decent performance standard. I dipped my toe into jazz 12yrs ago and started making friends in the scene in South Wales and quickly realised how much attention I had to devote to studying and practicing to come anywhere close to as how good these guys are. I don't want to limit myself to one style of music. Not that I don't have the confidence to take the challenge...far from it, but I don't want to place myself in a position where I am single minded as a musician as I want to play all kinds of styles and genres. Jazz can really suck a lot of you into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367579412' post='2067127'] I am just trying to give myself permission to be crap and happy at the same time [/quote] NOW you're talking my language As has been mentioned, there's a very real possibility that you're your own worst critic - 120 gigs a year in a genre where musical scrutiny from players and audience is at a relatively high level means your peers must be impressed. Either that or you've got a van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367580210' post='2067142'] I seem to manage to find the suckers, though [/quote] You never said it was free jazz you played. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Playing any music well ( in fact doing anything at all well ) is hard - why would jazz be a special case? I go see ballet a fair bit - watching the dancers and the orchestra - and my first thought is often 'Christ - I could never do that'. But that's just not true. If I put the hours in that those folk do in the ways that they do it of course I could. Put them on a stage in a boozer full of scrotes on a Saturday night and get them to do what I can do well and they'd probably crap themselves. If you strive to do anything well you never really consider yourself the finished article. The 'goal' constantly changes as your skill sets improve. Any of us can do anything we wish - if we work hard enough for it - but I maintain that many of us are far too wrapped up in trying to be the best craftsman we can be to allow ourselves to be artists. Artists.. ideas.... that's where true happiness of expression lies. Trying to sharpen skills to absolute perfection will always produce a frustrating shortfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socrates Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Wow I sympathise with this completely - after being a lover of jazz for years but only ever playing rock and indie (and not being a music reader), I was recently invited to play in a jazz trio with a guitarist who has been playing standards for many years and a professional violinist. I felt like an absolute plodder in comparison but now we have about an hour of material and a couple of gigs under our belt the learning curve has been phenomenal. What this has shown me is that even just reading changes is a skill in itself (in lots of other music I think we just think in terms of riffs, verse, chorus etc rather than counting out bars), before even tackling soloing and feel. The guts and confidence to get on stage with a bunch of strangers and pick up a standard off the cuff is something I aspire to one day . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.I. Joe Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 My aim for this year is to begin my assault on jazz, at least to a point where I can make a passable attempt at a II V I and maybe a few standards. First I need to learn and re-learn my chord structures, scales and modes and then feel out how to apply them. I've been using Scott's Bass Lessons, are there any other resources that someone could recommend that would complement that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I play blues and when I, or the guitarist, makes a mistake we call it 'Jazz'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1367580977' post='2067160'] I go see ballet a fair bit - watching the dancers and the orchestra - and my first thought is often 'Christ - I could never do that'. But that's just not true. If I put the hours in that those folk do in the ways that they do it of course I could. [/quote] Oooooh, I feel a bet coming on... [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1367580977' post='2067160'] Put them on a stage in a boozer full of scrotes on a Saturday night and get them to do what I can do well and they'd probably crap themselves.[/quote] That's a bit like saying "That Einstein bloke was a bit clever, an all, but could he install a gas cooker? Could he f***." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Just wondering how you get so many gigs, Bilbo? Regular band, dep work? Do you have an agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1367582819' post='2067194'] Oooooh, I feel a bet coming on... That's a bit like saying "That Einstein bloke was a bit clever, an all, but could he install a gas cooker? Could he f***." [/quote] No it isn't - you've just used a bit of ,my paragraph which was saying that anybody can do anything if they put the hours in to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Er yes it bloody is... I did a gig last night with my new band and I count myself lucky to be among such incredible players - I really appreciate the fact that I have to give it my best to match up to what they are doing - mostly I succeed but it's the bits where I feel like I've made a mistake or just lose concentration that annoy me most - it's not easy doing a day's work and then going out to play a 2-hour jazz gig. That said my fave bit of the gig was playing this tricky little latin funk tune - and while the groove is not the easiest to nail I really got hold of it in the solo sections and myself and the drummer had a ball... I think one of my greatest frustrations with playing jazz is I have good days and bad days - and mostly it's all in the mind (being tired being the main culprit) which means each gig has a huge amount of variability in it - the guys that play all the time are so good because it takes every moment you have to maintain a certain high level of ability - and I'm talking about mental/conceptual ability not just technique. It's all a mind set that takes a long time to develop and the further you go into it the deeper you realise it is - it's scary and exciting all the time and that's why I love (trying) to play it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367578050' post='2067108']I was wondering, therefore, given all the above 'environmental factors', why I think it is EVER going to be anything but grimly inadequate. [/quote] I'd say it's all relative, Bilbo. One person's "grimly inadequate" is another's "frankly brilliant". The key thing here is that you seem to be continually aspiring to do better - I think the rot only sets in when you start believing that's no longer necessary. I have no critical ears for jazz. I love listening to it, but I don't necessarily know 'how' to listen to it (yet). But your playing has always sounded superb to me - something I'll be aspiring to when I [i]eventually[/i] get round to picking up an upright myself (a long-standing ambition of mine). I think your upcoming gigs will be the proof of the pudding... and I'm fairly sure you'll be feeling more than adequate by the end of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1367583535' post='2067209'] Just wondering how you get so many gigs, Bilbo? Regular band, dep work? Do you have an agent? [/quote] I don't have that many, although I have done (2008). I am on about 50 a year nowadays although they are all good ones now (musically, I mean). When I did 120, 80 of the were awful, awful stuff. Bad players playing bad material badly but for good money I get to play with great people by booking them. On the bakcof my Paul CHambers biography, I wrote this: [i]'Rob Palmer is Senior Probation Officer and a semi-professional bass player of 28 years experience who has played jazz for most of that time. He has performed and recorded with some of the leading British jazz musicians including as Jim Mullen, Iain Ballamy, Stan Sultzman, Janusz Carmello, Dave DeFries, Tim Whitehead and Roy Williams. His ambition is to play with one of these guys twice'. [/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 Interstingly, when Branford Marsalis finished the Sting tours, he said that going back to Jazz was hard because he had to get back into [i]thinking[/i] (rather than playing) that fast. I think Mike has a point; it is not the chops that are missing, it is the ability to translate your mental idea into a physically executed line that is lacking when you are not hitting the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 PS: Off topic, but this seems like a good place to let y'all know that the programme for this year's Manchester Jazz Festival was announced yesterday: http://www.manchesterjazz.com/festival-programme-2013/ If anyone's coming up for it then let me know. I'll be mooching around as much as I can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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