Groove or Rock, Can a player excel at both ?

[hamfist]

My personal theory is that bass players naturally rock [u]or[/u] funk/groove.

For me I naturally rock. I'm passable at funk and modern grooves, but know that I instinctively rock well, and hard. Conversely I have heard players who can funk/groove like anything, but don't know how to rock to save their lives.

In fact I'd go so far as to say I've NEVER heard a player who really excels at both.


..... discuss ................

[Guest MoJo]

I can rock out with the best of them but my groove/ funk sucks big time

[JTUK]

Two completely different playing styles generally and your path would typically have been divided at quite an early bass playing age.

I find you can make a decent fist at both or either but if you don't listen to the stuff...you don't have the empathy to be pretty good at it.

Most rock players that I know couldn't groove in any sense to save their lives..but then if you wanted a funk player to really lay into a
pile of hard playing straight 8's that wouldn't interest them in the slighestn and they wouldn't really have the style/technique honed to do it anyway.

Oh..and btw... slap riffs aren't likely to be great grooves so they don't count

[xilddx]

I think the two are intrinsically linked. To make someone want to rock out or dance you have to have that almost indefinable sense of timing, syncopation and phrasing. You have to groove. For me, Deftones and Beyoncé are almost the same. They make me want to move in almost the same way. The notes and style are peripheral to the core skill.

[Lenny B]

Yes. John Paul Jones for 1. He does both at the same time, his rock really swings and has a groove.
And Flea, when he still grooved (I really don't enjoy the last couple of RHCP albums, but love BSSM).
And not that anyone can back me up on this, but I think I can - I enjoy both and have always played both (but admittedly did have a few years when I rocked much less) - I'm just as happy playing Megadeth as James Brown

[JTUK]

hmm... not sure Flea is someone that you could say grooves.
He might just have been able to do so out of the RHCP's... and the stuff on Morrisettes was the closest I've heard, but since most know and hear him in
the RHCP's..then that is an emphatic NO, from my POV.

So, here we have it... what is a groove by the commion consensus here?

[thumbo]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365582412' post='2041225']
For me, Deftones and Beyoncé are almost the same. They make me want to move in almost the same way.
[/quote]

This conjures odd images. Do you get funny looks at the Deftones gig or the Beyonce gig? [size=4] [/size]

[xilddx]

[quote name='thumbo' timestamp='1365583111' post='2041242']
This conjures odd images. Do you get funny looks at the Deftones gig or the Beyonce gig?
[/quote]

I get funny looks in a lot of places mate

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365583077' post='2041240']
what is a groove by the commion consensus here?


[/quote]

That's the big question.

I think if you're looking specifically at rock that is 8th or 16th notes and played on the beat then that isn't grooving.

But lots of rock isn't like that. Loads of rock has the drummer playing with feel, sometimes moving ahead of the beat and sometimes playing behind it. The bass player has to sit in that groove.

Funk is different. Not sure what the OP is asking. Does the OP know what he is asking?

[spike]

I'd say anyone could excel at both if they wanted to, it's just a matter of feel and practice.

And what about jazz, swing, country, latin, reggae etc? They are all different styles and it depends what style or styles you are interested in playing.

[charic]

As above really, that hard pushing / rocking sound is usually from sitting ever so slightly in front of the beat. That groove type sound is from sitting just behind it. JPJ is a weird one because imo the Drummer somehow sits behind the beat while usually (but not always) the bass is just in front, theoretically it shouldn't work but it does

I try to practice both, and I'm having to learn to switch between the two in the same song lately which really messes with my head

[tinyd]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365582412' post='2041225']
I think the two are intrinsically linked. To make someone want to rock out or dance you have to have that almost indefinable sense of timing, syncopation and phrasing. You have to groove. For me, Deftones and Beyoncé are almost the same. They make me want to move in almost the same way. The notes and style are peripheral to the core skill.
[/quote]

+1 - the core abilities are the same. IMO any bass player who understands the qualities that @xilddx has outlined should be able to play either genre (or anything in between). They might not WANT to, but that's another thing....

[BigRedX]

It's just music. And when did micro-timing become more important than note-choice for bass players?

[charic]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365585701' post='2041297']
It's just music. And when did micro-timing become more important than note-choice for bass players?
[/quote]

It can change the feel of a song quite significantly though. It's one of those "feel" factors IMO.

Note choice obviously has the bigger effect though

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365585701' post='2041297']
It's just music. And when did micro-timing become more important than note-choice for bass players?
[/quote]

Mmm, not sure I agree. For a bassist, the two are pretty much equal in their necessity. Any intermediate bassist should be able to apply those two qualities to their music with equal panache.

[simon1964]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365583077' post='2041240']
hmm... not sure Flea is someone that you could say grooves.
He might just have been able to do so out of the RHCP's... and the stuff on Morrisettes was the closest I've heard, but since most know and hear him in
the RHCP's..then that is an emphatic NO, from my POV.

So, here we have it... what is a groove by the commion consensus here?


[/quote]

Got to disagree. Have a listen to his playing on Soul to Squeeze. Excellent example of rock with groove IMO

Edited April 10, 2013 by simon1964

[discreet]

Yes - they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, you can't have one without the other, imho.
Rock grooves. Funk rocks. [size=4]You've either got 'it' or you haven't.[/size]

Edited April 10, 2013 by discreet

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365585701' post='2041297']
It's just music. And when did micro-timing become more important than note-choice for bass players?
[/quote]
Just as important! Surely rocking is a particular kind of grooving?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365586023' post='2041303']
Mmm, not sure I agree. For a bassist, the two are pretty much equal in their necessity. Any intermediate bassist should be able to apply those two qualities to their music with equal panache.
[/quote]

That's what I was trying to imply. IMO all these arguments seem to elevate micro-timing far over note choice, when they should be roughly equal (with maybe note choice being slightly more important).

[BigRedX]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1365586758' post='2041316']
Yes - they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, you can't have one without the other, imho.
Rock grooves. Funk rocks. You've either got 'it' or you haven't.
[/quote]

Actually IME it's whether the bassist and the drummer (in particular) can latch onto the same micro-timing that is important. Individually you can both have impeccable "groove" or "rock" but if you can't match up your micro-timing then you'll both end up sounding like beginners.

[Jayben]

I don't know about excel at both, but a player can sure as hell be crap at both!

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365585701' post='2041297']
It's just music. And when did micro-timing become more important than note-choice for bass players?
[/quote]

Bass is part of the rhythm section. You should be able to make a song groove just playing a mix of 8th and 16th root notes.

If choosing to play roots is note choice it's very basic note choice

[JTUK]

Have a drummer who is a rocker and he is really good at that.. as good as anyone around here, IMO.
He can make a pass at the funkier stuff and sound pretty decent ..
but you can tell he doesn't listen to it..and therefore he is short., IMO.
If he put the time in..he could be so much better but he doesn't have the empathy or desire.
Not a problem in reality as nobody but a really good funk drummer would notice...
but...
It is more than just having the notes/licks down.... in both genres.

I think it is fair to say so and so is a rock player OR a funk player.
The people that I know just don't cross-over or can't... ( I am talking about being at home in both a Maiden song or a Jamiroquai song... hmmmm..???)
and why would they unless you are talking playing AT it, rather than playing IT.

Edited April 10, 2013 by JTUK

[lojo]

yes, its possible to be great at both, though not every is great at even one.

[TimR]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365588991' post='2041362']
Have a drummer who is a rocker and he is really good at that.. as good as anyone around here, IMO.
He can make a pass at the funkier stuff and sound pretty decent ..
but you can tell he doesn't listen to it..and therefore he is short., IMO.
If he put the time in..he could be so much better but he doesn't have the empathy or desire.
Not a problem in reality as nobody but a really good funk drummer would notice...
but...
It is more than just having the notes/licks down.... in both genres.

I think it is fair to say so and so is a rock player OR a funk player.
The people that I know just don't cross-over or can't... ( I am talking about being at home in both a Maiden song or a Jamiroquai song... hmmmm..???)
and why would they unless you are talking playing AT it, rather than playing IT.
[/quote]

Yes. The secret is to immerse yourself in the genre. As a teenager I used to only listen to metal. I was/am good at playing metal.

As I've grown older my tastes have broadened and I listen to everything.

Hopefully I can now play anything.

I remember an interview with Roger Daltry who described their stand in drummer as a very good rock drummer, good basic 'four to the floor' but not what they were about.

Edited April 10, 2013 by TimR