Groove or Rock, Can a player excel at both ?

[SpaceChick]

Having read the whole thread.... What this is all pointing to is Musicianship....

You can talk genres, funk, groove, rock.... But ultimately isn't it all about whether the bassist has the right level of musicianship to serve the song and serve it well.

Personally I don't buy into this you can only do one thing or another.... That just means you've "pigeon-holed" yourself as a player or are too scared to step out of your comfort zone.

Whilst I am in a soft rock covers band and a heavy rock covers band.... I like to play all music genres to develop me as a holistic bassist.

[chris_b]

Funk and Rock are like Jazz and Folk. Most people don't combine the two but specialise.

Some are good at playing both, while most will just think they are.

[xgsjx]

SpaceChick just hit the nail on the head. If you can play to a decent level & decide to switch genres, then if you're playing/practicing regularly there's no reason why you couldn't excel.

Not enough people combine alternating genres by the sound of things.

[sykilz]

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1365626365' post='2042133']
Correct. Doug (Dug) Pinnick fits the description better than any other player mentioned. Imagine if there were bass players unfamiliar with his work - unthinkable!
[/quote]

They would surely feel the shame at missing out on such a legend!!!!!

[sykilz]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365626916' post='2042141']
And that, good sir, is rock. No funk in there.

Can we please, please, please all stop using the word "groove" as we have established that it is a too ambiguous and widely defined word to be useful.

My biggest problem is that I can listen to a song and instantly know whether a song is rock or funk according to my personal definitions, but can't articulate it accurately to save my life !
[/quote]
The thread is called "Groove or rock....",however....
You`re quite right, just the groove of certain rock players is what I was trying to highlight, for me, a pure rock listener,funk is quite another thing,there were some funk/metal crossover types in the mid 90`s, but I think the funkiness involved would have angered many a true funk fan,whereas I, as a rock fan,liked the extra dimension it gave to .....I don`t know...early Faith no more for example.

Edited April 11, 2013 by sykilz

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365594154' post='2041466']
I can learn the lines for funk, and get them to sound authentic, but can't think of the note selection for myself, in a million years. So I'm playing along to something and want to "funk it up" it's a real struggle.
[/quote]

Play on the one and don't fake the funk.

(Or, slap a root on the 1, and follow it up with some minor 3rd to major 3rd, minor 7th to root, 4th to 5th hammers up near the 12th fret. That way yo can generally fake the funk)

[JTUK]

Faking it isn't excelling, tho..

If you think of bassists that are considered funky.... like Larry G who just exudes it, then they will have a
take on the genre that you either have or you haven't.

You can't be seriously funky or groovy just because you put the time in or want to be.
Some guys are funky without having great chops or technique.. and some can't be in a million years no matter what.

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1365665255' post='2042439']
Having read the whole thread.... What this is all pointing to is Musicianship....

You can talk genres, funk, groove, rock.... But ultimately isn't it all about whether the bassist has the right level of musicianship to serve the song and serve it well.

Personally I don't buy into this you can only do one thing or another.... That just means you've "pigeon-holed" yourself as a player or are too scared to step out of your comfort zone.

Whilst I am in a soft rock covers band and a heavy rock covers band.... I like to play all music genres to develop me as a holistic bassist.
[/quote]


Good comment. I know the music industry likes to compartmentalise bands, but there is a whole world of fascinating, interesting and exciting music out there of almost infinite variety to draw on, so why do some so many bands and musicians seem to limit themselves to playing and writing within a particular genre? If you listen to a wide range of music (which I'm assuming most of you do), then surely that would get automatically absorbed into your musical style?

The notion that a musician can only play well (with 'authenticity' - whatever that means) in one particular style is absurd. Can you only play rock 'properly' if you have tatts and percings? Do you need to wear a zoot suit to play jazz? Or a pork pie hat to play ska? Why can't you play a tune with a heavy rock flavour followed by one with a reggae beat followed by a mongolian folk song? Ok, maybe not the mongolian folk song, but provided you have a group of musicians with decent chops and you have the necessary instruments at your disposal, then surely any style is up for grabs?

One of the positive things about music for me today is that we have moved away from the almost tribal musical affiliations of years gone by - mods v rockers, punks v teddyboys etc. - ok, maybe the down side is that people are less passionate about music than they once were, but the upside is more familiarity with and acceptance of different types of music.

I guess ultimately it's down to perception. If you have very fixed ideas about what makes something 'rock', and are upset by any deviation from that template, then that's up to you, but for me that completely misses the point of what makes brilliant music.

[bremen]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1365677328' post='2042652']



Good comment. I know the music industry likes to compartmentalise bands, but there is a whole world of fascinating, interesting and exciting music out there of almost infinite variety to draw on, so why do some so many bands and musicians seem to limit themselves to playing and writing within a particular genre? If you listen to a wide range of music (which I'm assuming most of you do), then surely that would get automatically absorbed into your musical style?

The notion that a musician can only play well (with 'authenticity' - whatever that means) in one particular style is absurd. Can you only play rock 'properly' if you have tatts and percings? Do you need to wear a zoot suit to play jazz? Or a pork pie hat to play ska? Why can't you play a tune with a heavy rock flavour followed by one with a reggae beat followed by a mongolian folk song? Ok, maybe not the mongolian folk song, but provided you have a group of musicians with decent chops and you have the necessary instruments at your disposal, then surely any style is up for grabs?

One of the positive things about music for me today is that we have moved away from the almost tribal musical affiliations of years gone by - mods v rockers, punks v teddyboys etc. - ok, maybe the down side is that people are less passionate about music than they once were, but the upside is more familiarity with and acceptance of different types of music.

I guess ultimately it's down to perception. If you have very fixed ideas about what makes something 'rock', and are upset by any deviation from that template, then that's up to you, but for me that completely misses the point of what makes brilliant music.
[/quote]

Great post, reminded me of my favourite ever genre-ignorer, Mr Zappa:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcjbc22MKQI#

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1365678399' post='2042678']
Great post, reminded me of my favourite ever genre-ignorer, Mr Zappa:

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcjbc22MKQI#"]http://m.youtube.com...?v=kcjbc22MKQI#[/url]
[/quote]

Unsurprisingly perhaps, I'm a huge fan of Uncle Frank...

[hamfist]

Interesting how a thread comparing the contrasting skills needed to "groove" in funk and/or rock has turned into a social comment on stereotyping and pigeonholing. I suspect some folks have just not quite got the original point (or possibly, more likely, not read the whole thread).

So, for those who advocate that we all live happily ever after, pushing ourselves upwards and onwards into musical excellence in all styles and genres, becoming that, much worshiped, "well-rounded bassist" (I've always felt this was more of a waistline comment). Are you suggesting that there is no difference in the brain-skills and inherent talent needed to excel in either the funk or rock genres ?

Clearly there is some sort of differentiation between the two and, yes, it will be inherently a little difficult to define exact boundaries but I think 99% of us actually understand and can recognise the difference between a stereotypical funk riff and a stereotypical rock riff. My hypothesis, and my personal experience, is that those who naturally excel in one will struggle a bit with the other and that masters of both are the rarest of rare things. Are there really so few people who have found this too ?

[xilddx]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365682514' post='2042775']
Interesting how a thread comparing the contrasting skills needed to "groove" in funk and/or rock has turned into a social comment on stereotyping and pigeonholing. I suspect some folks have just not quite got the original point (or possibly, more likely, not read the whole thread).

So, for those who advocate that we all live happily ever after, pushing ourselves upwards and onwards into musical excellence in all styles and genres, becoming that, much worshiped, "well-rounded bassist" (I've always felt this was more of a waistline comment). Are you suggesting that there is no difference in the brain-skills and inherent talent needed to excel in either the funk or rock genres ?

Clearly there is some sort of differentiation between the two and, yes, it will be inherently a little difficult to define exact boundaries but I think 99% of us actually understand and can recognise the difference between a stereotypical funk riff and a stereotypical rock riff. My hypothesis, and my personal experience, is that those who naturally excel in one will struggle a bit with the other and that masters of both are the rarest of rare things. Are there really so few people who have found this too ?
[/quote]

I honestly think you don't really want to accept that people think you are wrong.

Your post above is contradictory, you are also stereotyping.

Masters of anything are rare.

[JTUK]

I think I can play and groove well... I've listened to a lot
and my technique is pretty sound..all in my opinion.
I think I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things...or certainly at the level I operate.

I can't play reggae to save my life..
but surely, I should be able to if I am a capable bassist....???

The trick is to know where you come up short...so I leave reggae well alone.

[Lynottfan]

I happen to be one of those that thinks that the OP is NOT wrong, but just like the recent passing of Mrs T this always going to a plolarising issue. There are an incredible amount of players out there that imho can't rock to save their lives and I can see the point that the OP makes.

[bremen]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365684910' post='2042852']
I think I can play and groove well... I've listened to a lot
and my technique is pretty sound..all in my opinion.
I think I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things...or certainly at the level I operate.

I can't play reggae to save my life..
but surely, I should be able to if I am a capable bassist....???
The trick is to know where you come up short...so I leave reggae well alone.
[/quote]

Do you like reggae though? I'm sure if you do you'd be able to play it after some time listening to and watching Family Man Barrett.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365684910' post='2042852']
I think I can play and groove well... I've listened to a lot
and my technique is pretty sound..all in my opinion.
I think I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things...or certainly at the level I operate.

I can't play reggae to save my life..
but surely, I should be able to if I am a capable bassist....???

The trick is to know where you come up short...so I leave reggae well alone.
[/quote]

Good post, and the point is that if you want to play any sort of music well you need to breathe it. Reggae is easily possible but you have to REALLY love it and REALLY feel it. It helps if you want to dance when you hear it.

When I put music on that I really like, I can't help but want to move and dance and rock the f*** out. Ask Low End Bee

Seriously, there are 'rock' bands that you see on stage looking more like Stonehenge (and not in a heavy way). These people can not rock out because they are not being made to move by what they are playing. Plenty of funk players who do the same, if I see a funk player sitting down they can f*** off most of the time, same with drummers wearing woolly jumpers, they ain't working hard enough

Seriously, if I put Deftones on I feel like going mad, I feel the energy so viscerally, same with a lot of Beyoncé stuff, Single Ladies for example, I just want to dance. Reggae and dub REALLY makes me want to move. If you don't feel that way there is no hope.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365683641' post='2042808']
I honestly think you don't really want to accept that people think you are wrong.

[/quote]

But he isn't N...or not in my opinion.

People may think they can make a fist of both...and it comes down to what sort of fist...?
To the vast majority of people, if someone said play something funky on the bass...they'd pull off their bestest
slap riff....
That is the sort of thing you are up against.

Somethings have a funk tone or element, somethings have funk through and through. World of cheese..!!!
If you put a world class funk player into Maiden or a metal band... I doubt they'd get the gig even on playing ability alone.
That is why the OP is valid..IMHO.

We are replacing a rock drummer with a funk player. Once we like what he brings to the party, we will decide if the direction that takes us to is where we want to go...
It wont be because he can't play... as he is likely in a different league anyway...it will be because we can bend to what he brings.
But then we don't inhabit a strict genre..we know we will miss the rock-out, maybe.. but should gain some serious funk chops.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1365685452' post='2042866']
Do you like reggae though? I'm sure if you do you'd be able to play it after some time listening to and watching Family Man Barrett.
[/quote]

No... I don't like it... I don't get it.
As far as the notes go it should be easy...but not to me it isn't..


I am trying to find a clip of a funk groove.
It is as slippery as hell... and the guy just has IT..
We should be able to get close to it..and make it work to varying degrees, but there will be a world of difference in how successful most of us will be....

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365685971' post='2042880']
But he isn't N...or not in my opinion.

People may think they can make a fist of both...and it comes down to what sort of fist...?
To the vast majority of people, if someone said play something funky on the bass...they'd pull off their bestest
slap riff....
That is the sort of thing you are up against.

Somethings have a funk tone or element, somethings have funk through and through. World of cheese..!!!
If you put a world class funk player into Maiden or a metal band... I doubt they'd get the gig even on playing ability alone.
That is why the OP is valid..IMHO.

We are replacing a rock drummer with a funk player. Once we like what he brings to the party, we will decide if the direction that takes us to is where we want to go...
It wont be because he can't play... as he is likely in a different league anyway...it will be because we can bend to what he brings.
But then we don't inhabit a strict genre..we know we will miss the rock-out, maybe.. but should gain some serious funk chops.
[/quote]

I honestly think a person who feels music very deeply can do anything their passions dictate as long as they have some natural musical ability, are competent players, and live and breathe music. I'm pretty obsessed with many forms of popular music and I think I can carry off rock and funk and that I'm developing a personal voice in the bands I'm in. But I know a good few capable amateurs who are not really obsessed, they are not musical sponges, and it shows in their lack of musical expression when they play. And often can't tell what they lack.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1365685593' post='2042868']
Good post, and the point is that if you want to play any sort of music well you need to breathe it. Reggae is easily possible but you have to REALLY love it and REALLY feel it. It helps if you want to dance when you hear it.

When I put music on that I really like, I can't help but want to move and dance and rock the f*** out. Ask Low End Bee

Seriously, there are 'rock' bands that you see on stage looking more like Stonehenge (and not in a heavy way). These people can not rock out because they are not being made to move by what they are playing. Plenty of funk players who do the same, if I see a funk player sitting down they can f*** off most of the time, same with drummers wearing woolly jumpers, they ain't working hard enough

Seriously, if I put Deftones on I feel like going mad, I feel the energy so viscerally, same with a lot of Beyoncé stuff, Single Ladies for example, I just want to dance. Reggae and dub REALLY makes me want to move. If you don't feel that way there is no hope.
[/quote]

Agree..sort of..

And I think funk takes that sort of commitment.... which is why most rock players will miss it by a mile..even if they don't want to think that they would.
If I had a gig needing hard 8ths dug in.. I'd say, give it to someone else..who can and wants to do it.
AC/DC..??? money..?? yes please...!! triple times over, but really, give it to someone else...
I don't have what it takes to do that gig....

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1365686501' post='2042894']
Agree..sort of..

And I think funk takes that sort of commitment.... which is why most rock players will miss it by a mile..even if they don't want to think that they would.
If I had a gig needing hard 8ths dug in.. I'd say, give it to someone else..who can and wants to do it.
AC/DC..??? money..?? yes please...!! triple times over, but really, give it to someone else...
I don't have what it takes to do that gig....
[/quote]

Here's a question. Can you improvise music in your head, bass lines, drums, sounds, whatever, that increases your heart rate and makes you nod your head or move your body, makes you smile, gets you all excited?

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365682514' post='2042775']
Are you suggesting that there is no difference in the brain-skills and inherent talent needed to excel in either the funk or rock genres ?
[/quote]

Yes. They are just different forms of modern music which basically share the same roots. I'm not experienced in the classical musical world, but I would imagine that a good classical musician would be capable of playing pretty much anything by any composer from any period and make a good job of it. Why should 'we' be any different?

[xilddx]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1365686827' post='2042902']
Yes. They are just different forms of modern music which basically share the same roots. I'm not experienced in the classical musical world, but I would imagine that a good classical musician would be capable of playing pretty much anything by any composer from any period and make a good job of it. Why should 'we' be any different?
[/quote]

Exactly. You have to be obsessed with music. You can't be obsessed with bass and expect to be a funky or rocky or dubby bassist, unless that obsession is with the EFFECT the bass has on the music as part of the ensemble. An obsession with an instrument in isolation is a sure path to mediocrity and utter boredom.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1365581675' post='2041212']
My personal theory is that bass players naturally rock [u]or[/u] funk/groove.

For me I naturally rock....
[/quote]
It's not natural, it's learned.

[chris_b]

Good players only succeed by specialising.

Yehudi Menuhin loved playing with Stéphane Grappelli but his playing was so "right" that it killed the guys in the band. They hated every moment.

If you want to be good then choose your style. Forget being the rounded musician stuff. I can't think of anyone who's a master at playing a musical instrument in more than one genre.

Pavarotti singing a pop song makes you want to weep (in pain)!

Rock and Groove? It's the same thing, IMO.