MCPS licenses, ouch. (edit: oh, it's ok)

[mcnach]

So Sea Bass Kid finally recorded the album, we have the launch gig booked, all looks good... now artwork is finished, we had the quotes to get a bunch of CDs printed... "oh, you need to show that you at least applied for a PRS/MCPS license".

Erm... ok.

We are doing it all ourselves, and it's the first time... so we're finding out things as we go along.

What at first looked like a very complicated maze of rules and uses, "license for music while in the toilet does not apply if wearing a red cardigan..." sort of divisions and subdivisions... finally it becomes clear that for a band of amateur musicians doing it all themselves the "LM" license applies. Ok... cool. How much?

£326 for up to a 1000 copies if the CD has more than 25min of music.



seriously? for a small band that will just sell CDs at gigs and will probably still have copies laying around when we retire???
it seems a tad disproportionate...

Edited April 9, 2013 by mcnach

[Lynottfan]

That has gone up a shed load, it was a £100 not that long ago, not good, it is worth having though, we did all right out of it for awhile, sadly not as long as we would have liked, but it was better than nothing.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1365436793' post='2039607']
That has gone up a shed load, it was a £100 not that long ago, not good, it is worth having though, we did all right out of it for awhile, sadly not as long as we would have liked, but it was better than nothing.
[/quote]


worth having?

not like we have a choice. Printing companies ask for you to have a license.

I'm still not sure what we get out of it. It seems to me that a small band will not get anything at all.

[bertbass]

Why not burn them yourselves. Get printable CDs, http://www.amazon.co.uk/CD-R80-Inkjet-Printable-pieces-recordable/dp/B00AR0WOY8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1365466888&sr=8-4&keywords=printable+cds and print them as well on a printer that prints CDs like an Epson photo R220. You might as well print out the back covers and inserts for the jewel cases, http://www.amazon.co.uk/100x-Jewel-Cases-Black-Tray/dp/B0011YDXPI/ref=sr_1_6?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1365466968&sr=1-6&keywords=jewel+cases while you're at it. It's a lot cheaper so more profit for you.

[RockfordStone]

release it online over itunes, spotify etc using tunecore or some such, then make up a batch on your own

Edited April 9, 2013 by RockfordStone

[BigRedX]

Are you sure?

I've done loads of self-released CDs and vinyl and the only time I've ever needed an MCPS licence is when there were cover versions involved. The rest of the time all you have to do is to sign a release saying that you own the copyright on all the songs being reproduced.

[Dad3353]

Is this any help..?

[url="http://www.ineedmedia.co.uk/important_replication_information/mcps_licence_mcps_license/mcps_licence_mcps_license.html"]http://www.ineedmedia.co.uk/important_replication_information/mcps_licence_mcps_license/mcps_licence_mcps_license.html[/url]

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1365467021' post='2040091']
Why not burn them yourselves. Get printable CDs, http://www.amazon.co.uk/CD-R80-Inkjet-Printable-pieces-recordable/dp/B00AR0WOY8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1365466888&sr=8-4&keywords=printable+cds and print them as well on a printer that prints CDs like an Epson photo R220. You might as well print out the back covers and inserts for the jewel cases, http://www.amazon.co.uk/100x-Jewel-Cases-Black-Tray/dp/B0011YDXPI/ref=sr_1_6?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1365466968&sr=1-6&keywords=jewel+cases while you're at it. It's a lot cheaper so more profit for you.
[/quote]

It's what one band I was in did. Turned enough profit to pay for the next recording session and covered its own costs in terms of production, too.
All we did was pay for rehearsals and travel to venues (which we shared in two vehicles)

[longtimefred]

sounds rather strange. I have had albums released through record labels etc that have never needed MCPS/PRS unless they have cover songs on(which mine never have done). If yours does have covers on it, i would forget getting CD's pressed and do it all through iTunes etc as they deal with all that themselves and you get your little tiny slice of the pie at the end of each sale.

forgot to say, all my releases have been done by my band using proper pressing companies as well. give these a look see. very good

[url="http://www.breedmedia.co.uk/"]http://www.breedmedia.co.uk/[/url]

Edited April 9, 2013 by longtimefred

[Lynottfan]

It depends how serious you are taking your music and the album release, also the one that a lot of people forget is how much do you artistically want to own the rights to your music,do you want it to be counted, do you want to get money from playing registered venues, do you want to have full copyright protection of your material, there is a lot a grey in the area, I consulted a top copyright lawyer (who happened to be a family friend lucky for me) and he told me of the nightmares involved, different countries will also play by different rules, or in some cases not respect them at all. A classic one for musicians is the old put cd in envelope and send it to yourself, thinking you are covered, and you have registered copyright, sadly NO it is not 100%, PRS/MCPS is not just for covers songs either, this whole area in a total minefield for musicians. Good luck mate.

[BigRedX]

Until mcnach comes back and tells us what is on the CD and who wrote it, any further speculation is useless.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1365496402' post='2040198']
Is this any help..?

[url="http://www.ineedmedia.co.uk/important_replication_information/mcps_licence_mcps_license/mcps_licence_mcps_license.html"]http://www.ineedmedi...ps_license.html[/url]
[/quote]


yeah, I had seen that, but that's the only place I have seen where it says it's free for your own music. The link they provide is broken. When you go to the MCPS/PRS site it specifies their limited manufacture (LM) license as being the one for bands of amateur musicians releasing their own CD themselves to sell during performances etc. Anything up to 1000 CDs.

[url="http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/cdsandvinyl/Pages/LimitedManufactureLicence%28LM%29.aspx"]http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/cdsandvinyl/Pages/LimitedManufactureLicence%28LM%29.aspx[/url]

it does not say anything about whether it's your music or not... I read it as assuming that it *is* your music... hmmm.
Actually, reading further, it seems it's for using music by others

[url="http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/cdsandvinyl/Pages/LimitedManufactureLicence%28LM%29.aspx"]http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/cdsandvinyl/Pages/LimitedManufactureLicence%28LM%29.aspx[/url]

it looks like I need to search more...
They don't make it easy, do they?

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365495851' post='2040192']
Are you sure?

I've done loads of self-released CDs and vinyl and the only time I've ever needed an MCPS licence is when there were cover versions involved. The rest of the time all you have to do is to sign a release saying that you own the copyright on all the songs being reproduced.
[/quote]

I'm sure the printing company asks us for a MCPS license, in addition to a form stating the music is ours and only ours...

[danthevan]

When i looked into it there was an option of upto 25 cd's. Carry less than 25 around with you and who can prove you've sold more?

[mcnach]

[quote name='longtimefred' timestamp='1365500633' post='2040279']
sounds rather strange. I have had albums released through record labels etc that have never needed MCPS/PRS unless they have cover songs on(which mine never have done). If yours does have covers on it, i would forget getting CD's pressed and do it all through iTunes etc as they deal with all that themselves and you get your little tiny slice of the pie at the end of each sale.

forgot to say, all my releases have been done by my band using proper pressing companies as well. give these a look see. very good

[url="http://www.breedmedia.co.uk/"]http://www.breedmedia.co.uk/[/url]
[/quote]


No covers whatsoever, it's all our own material.
It looks like I need to call the printing company to make sure. Maybe they just gave me the MCPS requirement as a general rule in case we have some non-original songs.

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365502668' post='2040317']
Until mcnach comes back and tells us what is on the CD and who wrote it, any further speculation is useless.
[/quote]


It's 10 original tracks by my band Sea Bass Kid. No covers at all.

[BigRedX]

mcnach, which CD manufacturing brokers are you using?

None of the ones I've ever had dealings with have ever needed anything more than a signed form saying that person/people supplying the audio for the CD and the imagery for the printed parts own the rights to it.

[TheRev]

If you own the rights to all the music on the CD, then you just need to sign a form stating that the songs and artwork all belong to you and that's it.
The relevant form will be hiding somewhere on the CD printer's website.

[mcnach]

I spoke to the printing company (the guy I had been dealing with in the past to sort quotes etc was away the past few days but was back today)... and it turns out what we need is license AP2 and that it should be free if it's our music (which it is)... now that's starting to sound reasonable...

This is using Dischromatix. We saw their work and we liked it, so we went with them.

[Big_Stu]

When my son's band did their live CD they had the discs mastered, copied & covers done at a place in Musselburgh, it's probably gone now (even if I could remember the name) but there was none of that hassle, just the disclaimer.

Times change, I wonder if Stiff had to go through all that.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1365520815' post='2040635']
Times change, I wonder if Stiff had to go through all that.
[/quote]

Every time we promoted a Stiff act they made sure we completed a PRS form so they could get their cut.

Steve

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1365523883' post='2040685']
Every time we promoted a Stiff act they made sure we completed a PRS form so they could get their cut.

Steve
[/quote]

Where did the doubt come in as to whether they would or not?
Did they do some covers too, I know very little about the acts material other than the bigger names on the label & their hits.......... and their initial image of being an ad hoc little company doing it their own way.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1365514858' post='2040547']
I spoke to the printing company (the guy I had been dealing with in the past to sort quotes etc was away the past few days but was back today)... and it turns out what we need is license AP2 and that it should be free if it's our music (which it is)... now that's starting to sound reasonable...
[/quote]

This is all new to me but I'm astonished that musicicans need a licence (even if it is free!!) to produce CDs of their own work!

It's bad enough when the "music business" tries to control how we can listen to stuff we buy, never mind imposing conditions on music we make up ourselves. Unbelievable.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1365527197' post='2040756']
This is all new to me but I'm astonished that musicicans need a licence (even if it is free!!) to produce CDs of their own work!

It's bad enough when the "music business" tries to control how we can listen to stuff we buy, never mind imposing conditions on music we make up ourselves. Unbelievable.
[/quote]

The license is actually on the side of the musicians - it gives some protection making sure you get paid if it gets covered by someone else and money is collected every time it gets airplay. Can seem like red tape at the time but comes in very handy like when Curtiss Muldoon's Seraphim got reworked as Maddonna's Ray of Light - as the original had been registered they ended up earning a small fortune. If it hadn't been registered they would have had a very hard time proving the track existed.

[Musky]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1365530079' post='2040811']
The license is actually on the side of the musicians - it gives some protection making sure you get paid if it gets covered by someone else and money is collected every time it gets airplay. Can seem like red tape at the time but comes in very handy like when Curtiss Muldoon's Seraphim got reworked as Maddonna's Ray of Light - as the original had been registered they ended up earning a small fortune. If it hadn't been registered they would have had a very hard time proving the track existed.
[/quote]

Exactly this - although the Madonna example would have been covered by PRS.

The red tape is there to make it more difficult to pirate or bootleg material, and ensure that if a writers material is used on another recording the appropriate mechanical royalties are paid.

Incidentally McNach, if you're new to all this [url="http://www.bemuso.com"]Bemuso.com[/url] has a very simple checklist (with some explanation) on DIY releases that has an emphasis on getting the job done without getting bogged down in an avalanche of info.