Guest MoJo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I've read many threads on the forum in the past where someone states, 'I run an ABC into and XYZ and barely get it above 2. Easily drowns out our drummer and two Marshall half stack guitarists'. Well, I can safely say, I've never found myself in that position. I play in a rock covers band, currently using a Fender TB-600 into a 4ohm Schroeder 21015 (2x10 and 1x15). I set the tone stack on the TB to 2-10-2 to get as near to a flat response as I can and then tweak from there. I am driving the amp hard enough for the power amp clip light to flicker on occasionally. We're a loud band but not that loud! I've ordered a Barefaced Super 15, hoping it may give me the headroom I need. Will an 8x10 be a better stop-gap option than the Schroeder until the S15 arrives? PS. Took my newly acquired LH500 to rehearsal last night and had that max'd out (literally).....still couldn't keep up with the mad six stringers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panamonte Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I'd start by pointing out to your guitarists that the master volume knob can also be turned in an anti-clockwise direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1350631937' post='1841365'] PS. Took my newly acquired LH500 to rehearsal last night and had that max'd out (literally).....still couldn't keep up with the mad six stringers [/quote] That alone screams that there is a problem somewhere!! Maybe there is some fault on the cab? My LH500 has never been above around 5 on the volume control - and that is with a VERY loud drummer and two guitars. That's not even reaching the point where the volume increase becomes non-linear (it seems to make a huge leap in volume at around 6)... As both the Hartke and the Fender use basically the same tone circuitry (which is not known for it's abililty to provide midrange) and Schroeder cabs are known for their abililty to SHOUT out the mids - maybe your amps and cabs are not getting the best out of each other? I don't know the physics very well, but maybe some kind of cancelling or phase opposition in the midrange (which is the bit that our ears hear best)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Panamonte' timestamp='1350632770' post='1841376'] I'd start by pointing out to your guitarists that the master volume knob can also be turned in an anti-clockwise direction [/quote] True, of course, but even they have to be as loud as the drummer! He is usually the one that determines everyone else's need for volume... Try turning one of them down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1350631937' post='1841365'] ....I've read many threads on the forum in the past where someone states, 'I run an ABC into and XYZ and barely get it above 2. Easily drowns out our drummer and two Marshall half stack guitarists'. Well, I can safely say, I've never found myself in that position.... [/quote] We have many people posting that their 112 combo, or similar, can keep up with a hard hitting drummer. [i]I don't believe them[/i]. Their definition of loud isn't anywhere near my experience of loud. I have kept up with loud drummers ([i]my[/i] definition of loud) with 500 watt amps and 410, 610 and 210/115 cab configs in the 800w - 1000w range. I was also at the upper limit of my ER15 plugs as well. If you're going to fight the volume game then you need lots of speakers and good ear plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) I think the answer is that your band is just[b] too loud[/b]! (I know - I'm too old...) Once the volume wars begin, there is no winner. Another thought: Have you listened to the [s]mess[/s] mix by walking out into the audience and still playing? Like most people, I have ears either side of my head (a bit like Shrek in fact), not on my ar$e cheeks. I have often found that what I can barely hear stood in front of my rig (up till now a 2x15 500W Ashdown stack) equates to alarmingly loud a few yards further forward. Try it! Other than that, I concur with this: [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1350633344' post='1841388'] True, of course, but even they have to be as loud as the drummer! He is usually the one that determines everyone else's need for volume... Try turning one of them down! [/quote] Edited October 19, 2012 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 If you just want to be able to hear what you're playing, putting a 1 x 10" combo up by your ear will work. If you want the whole band to be able to hear (and [i]feel[/i]) you over some fairly loud guitarists, it take a lot of volume IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1350633629' post='1841392'] We have many people posting that their 112 combo, or similar, can keep up with a hard hitting drummer. [i]I don't believe them[/i]. Their definition of loud isn't anywhere near my experience of loud. I have kept up with loud drummers ([i]my[/i] definition of loud) with 500 watt amps and 410, 610 and 210/115 cab configs in the 800w - 1000w range. I was also at the upper limit of my ER15 plugs as well. If you're going to fight the volume game then you need lots of speakers and good ear plugs. [/quote] Very true, IMO.... and this is why a single speaker will always struggle... if it can deal with the volume, it wont be able to deal with tone, IMO....it is either/or. But you also need to try and avoid this battle in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Weirdly I spent an entire Cryptopsy gig stood directly in front of the the bass cabs. I could feel but not hear the sound. At the back of the venue the bass was thunderous. The audible bass seemed to magically "Form" in the middle of the venue. Odd. Edited October 19, 2012 by Dandelion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudpup Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I wonder if you may have a problem with your cab. I too have an LH500 and i play in a bloody loud rock band (loudest ive ever been in for 20years with a crazy geetard and powerful drummer) and ive never gone near maxing it out. It would take the walls down if i did. Just out of interest, what are your tone settings on the amp - you need the mid over 2 o'clock ideally. The volume drops quite dramatically if you set it at 12pm or below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I have my bass amp about 6 feet behind me, and my guitar combo (for the tone!) next to my, and raised up. One amp to produce the sort of bass you "feel" close up but don't hear until you're further away. Another amp to produce the "tone" close to your ears. The perfect solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I play with a couple of pretty heavy hitting drummers, not stupidly loud though. I used to play in a band with 2 drummers, one a heavy hitter the other providing electronic percussion and fx noises through as much PA as he could get. Plpus a loud guitarist. That was LOUD. I find myself always ending u pwith the sa450 on half - occasionally just above - and with the ae410 that provides enough air movemnet and oomph to keep up. I wouldnt be in the same room for a secondwithout earplugs though.... IME a 112 cant possibly keep up with a loud drumer and 4x12 guitar cabs. Any claim to the contrary is just nonsense. However the BF S212t is most definitely loud enough to keep up with a very loud drummer, and a lot of guitar too, and with an LH500. One thing that is VERY important to note about the LH500 design in particular though, it has no input gain control, so if you have a low output active or passive bass you wil not give it enough input level to make the most of its power section. If you are gettign up over halfway on the LH500 then you should consider the passive input, or some form of active buffer preamp to give you more grunt on that amp's input. I have seen this with an Ibanez SR300 played by a player with a very light touch, the amp didnt get the input voltage it needed to run at its best, and so made the rig appear quiet, when in fact a different bass/player provided massive volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si600 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1350636236' post='1841430'] ...[b] too loud[/b]! (I know - I'm too old...) Once the volume wars begin, there is no winner. [/quote] Not strictly true, an iPod through a 50w Marshall Combo drowned the neighbours party stereo It was neither big nor clever but it was FUN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 CD player through Plux's LH500 -> Berg Ht210 & HT115 rig has achieved similar results, mwahahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1350637571' post='1841471'] I play with a couple of pretty heavy hitting drummers, not stupidly loud though. I used to play in a band with 2 drummers, one a heavy hitter the other providing electronic percussion and fx noises through as much PA as he could get. Plpus a loud guitarist. That was LOUD. I find myself always ending u pwith the sa450 on half - occasionally just above - and with the ae410 that provides enough air movemnet and oomph to keep up. I wouldnt be in the same room for a secondwithout earplugs though.... IME a 112 cant possibly keep up with a loud drumer and 4x12 guitar cabs. Any claim to the contrary is just nonsense. However the BF S212t is most definitely loud enough to keep up with a very loud drummer, and a lot of guitar too, and with an LH500. One thing that is VERY important to note about the LH500 design in particular though, it has no input gain control, so if you have a low output active or passive bass you wil not give it enough input level to make the most of its power section. If you are gettign up over halfway on the LH500 then you should consider the passive input, or some form of active buffer preamp to give you more grunt on that amp's input. I have seen this with an Ibanez SR300 played by a player with a very light touch, the amp didnt get the input voltage it needed to run at its best, and so made the rig appear quiet, when in fact a different bass/player provided massive volume. [/quote] I was playing my Stingray last night. I put it in the passive input first but it started to distort above 6 so I swapped it to the active input socket and could quite happily run it flat out without it being loud enough to cut through Edited October 19, 2012 by MoJo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Hmmm. Well how are you approaching 'cutting through'? Do you have a scooped tone? Because it doesnt matter how powerful your rig, if you arent putting frequencies that can work in the mix into that mix you will struggle to hear yourself. Something very odd going on here, what are the eq settings on the LH500, and the StingRay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Can you record your bass set up and post it at all? Without the guitars, just the bass in to the rig as you normally have it set up at 'war' volume? Do you have access to a dB meter so we can figure out how loud you're talking here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Volume can be so dependent on a range of things. I've depped in bands where the bass was only through the PA on a small gig. Other times I've struggled to be heard above the drummer with 400w. My advice is don't scoop the mids and make sure whatever cabs you are playing through are POINTED AT YOUR EARS!!! If that isn't the case, don't blow loads of dosh on extra watts until it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1350641062' post='1841537'] I was playing my Stingray last night. I put it in the passive input first but it started to distort above 6 so I swapped it to the active input socket and could quite happily run it flat out without it being loud enough to cut through [/quote] I've never been able to distort my LH500 - even with all the active controls on my Status up full!! Are your leads OK? Batteries? This just doesn't make sense to us LH500 users... This thread might be helpful [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/72764-schroeder-21015-cab/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/72764-schroeder-21015-cab/[/url] Edited October 19, 2012 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1350644292' post='1841610'] I've never been able to distort my LH500 - even with all the active controls on my Status up full!! Are your leads OK? Batteries? This just doesn't make sense to us LH500 users... This thread might be helpful [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/72764-schroeder-21015-cab/"]http://basschat.co.u...eder-21015-cab/[/url] [/quote] +1 its a circuit designed to have immense headroom. I cant get it to distort from input level, you could have an issue with the tube perhaps?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 The previous owner changed the valve for a JJ replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 hmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1350649367' post='1841726'] The previous owner changed the valve for a JJ replacement [/quote] I have a 'bog standard' ECC83 I could send you to try, see if it makes any difference - PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1350643275' post='1841583'] Do you have a scooped tone? what are the eq settings on the LH500, and the StingRay? [/quote] Stingray is naturally a little scooped (2EQ). Tried all sorts of EQ settings on the bass during the evening. LH500 was set 2-10-2 (close to flat on a Fender tone stack) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1350643343' post='1841584'] Can you record your bass set up and post it at all? Without the guitars, just the bass in to the rig as you normally have it set up at 'war' volume? Do you have access to a dB meter so we can figure out how loud you're talking here? [/quote] I'll give it a go. I have a dB meter app on my phone. Don't know how accurate it is. I ought to try using it at rehearsal and see what sort of dB levels we're reaching in the rehearsal room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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