Under what circumstances would you leave negative feedback??

[simon1964]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346017445' post='1784242']
Also bad feedback can be left when someone has outlay-ed money to aquire an item (in the form of courier or travel costs) but the other party pulled out, even then mods need proof of receipt that money was spent and all avenues from both parties have been exhausted to satisfy the aggrieved party.

[/quote]

Fair enough. My concern was where one side had already incurred costs on couriers or travel etc (as per Skankdelvar's example) then the other party pulls out - that seems to be covered by this

Edited August 26, 2012 by simon1964

[Shockwave]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346017837' post='1784253']
I've got news for you
[/quote]

Bugger, I didn't agree to that! Makes sense I guess.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346017656' post='1784246']
Wasn't there a story here about some buyer? Got the seller to pick him up from the station, tried the item, lovely stuff, got the seller to drive him to an ATM to get the cash, went back to the seller's house and then said "Nah! Changed my mind."

Or was I dreaming?
[/quote]

One time, a guy agreed to trade a bass and was really enthusiastic, I wasn't available to do the deal so I sent the Mrs out on a long train journey to do the deal. Guy turns up and basically lays into the bass and says it's not as described even though I provided over 30 photos of the bass and an in-depth description. He took advantage of my Mrs ignorance over the actual advert and refused a trade. I left bad feedback as it cost me a lot of money and care to get the Mrs there and make it up to her. I left bad feedback, he started harassing me and sent threatening text messages to me and the Mrs. He got banned eventually and he stopped contacting me. Frightening experience, absolute loon.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346017445' post='1784242']
Actually I am not the feedback mod. [/quote]

I've got news for you

[quote][b]Feedback[/b] - Bit like the ebay thing, only umm, different... (Moderated by Shockwave & silverfoxnik)[/quote]


Edit for: Jesus Christ! We're in a temporal feedback loop!

Edited August 26, 2012 by skankdelvar

[skankdelvar]

OK, I'm back.

It was terrible. in the 'other' continuum Hitler had won WW2, David Icke was fighting alien lizards from a bunker in Llandudno and there was no internet. So no-one would have been selling basses on BC anyway.

So, is Nick Clegg still Prime Minister?

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346018550' post='1784263']
OK, I'm back.

It was terrible. in the 'other' continuum Hitler had won WW2, David Icke was fighting alien lizards from a bunker in Llandudno and there was no internet. So no-one would have been selling basses on BC anyway.

So, is Nick Clegg still Prime Minister?
[/quote]

I've got news for you...

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346018550' post='1784263']
OK, I'm back.

It was terrible. in the 'other' continuum Hitler had won WW2, David Icke was fighting alien lizards from a bunker in Llandudno and there was no internet. So no-one would have been selling basses on BC anyway.

So, is Nick Clegg still Prime Minister?
[/quote]

No, it's Eck Buttox III and the year is 3026

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='billyapple' timestamp='1346018957' post='1784268']
No, it's Eck Buttox III and the year is 3026
[/quote]

'Wee' Eck Buttox III? The grandson[sup][size=3]44[/size][/sup] of Alex 'Wee Eck' Salmond?


[size=3][b]Eck Buttox III[/b] - Hereditary President of New Caledonia in the faraway Oglux system.[/size]

[color=#ffffff][size=3].[/size][/color]

Edited August 26, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346019304' post='1784272']
'Wee Eck' Buttox III? The grandson[sup]44[/sup] of Alex 'Wee Eck' Salmond?


[size=3][b]Eck Buttox III[/b] - Hereditary President of New Caledonia in the faraway Oglux system.[/size]
[/quote]

Humans look different in the future, as the evolution process is on going. Those are actually his feet. Regrettably we've not been able to evolve out of wearing stupid safety glasses when they are not needed.

[Billy Apple]

Oh, by the way, I wouldn't leave negative feedback for tyre-kickers and I'llbebbacks, as they're only part of the process. The feedback should be for the end purchaser/seller, and then I'd try to resolve any issue before posting on the forum. I was selling an item and a feller asked loads of questions, and mithered about the price, for about two weeks as I remember. Then someone jumped in and bought straight away, and it's him I left the feedback for. Must say I've had good sales and purchasing experience on BC

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1346015079' post='1784192']
I agree with ET. If a deal is agreed and then one party pulls out such that the deal falls though then I'd say that would warrant feedback even though a deal was never actually completed.
[/quote]
Well, I wouldn't always agree with that. If there's good reason for the failure to complete which is communicated (even if it is a lie, which probably couldn't be known) then I wouldn't want to leave negative feedback. As Shockwave says, for example, 'death in the family'.

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346015377' post='1784198']
As I said in my post above. No way would I ever allow a system that allowed people to bad mouth one party, because it is possible that a death in the family or something genuinely awful has occurred which means they couldn't complete the deal.
[/quote]
I completely agree that deals can, quite reasonably, fall through - e.g. the death in the family - and so should never result in negative feedback but I didn't think those were the kind of cases that were being discussed.

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346015377' post='1784198']
There is a reason why sellers on eBay cant leave feedback for watchers of items that never bid, Imagine the chaos!
[/quote]
I thought we were discussing people who had 'bid' and in fact agreed a deal, not those merely watching.

But, anyway, Basschat has spoken.

Edited August 26, 2012 by EssentialTension

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346017656' post='1784246']
Wasn't there a story here about some buyer? Got the seller to pick him up from the station, tried the item, lovely stuff, got the seller to drive him to an ATM to get the cash, went back to the seller's house and then said "Nah! Changed my mind."

Or was I dreaming?
[/quote]

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/122836-thursday-was-a-very-strange-day-for-me/page__p__1125922__hl__mx5%20train__fromsearch__1#entry1125922

[Shockwave]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1346020536' post='1784282']
Well, I wouldn't always agree with that. If there's good reason for the failure to complete which is communicated (even if it is a lie, which probably couldn't be known) then I wouldn't want to leave negative feedback. As Shockwave says, for example, 'death in the family'.


I completely agree that deals can, quite reasonably, fall through - e.g. the death in the family - and so should never result in negative feedback but I didn't think those were the kind of cases that were being discussed.


I thought we were discussing people who had 'bid' and in fact agreed a deal, not those merely watching.

But, anyway, Basschat has spoken.
[/quote]

Just using examples of similar but not quite the same deals/transactions.

Either way, if anyone can think of a better/more feasible policy then I would like to hear it. Pm me with your suggestions.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1346020794' post='1784285']
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/122836-thursday-was-a-very-strange-day-for-me/page__p__1125922__hl__mx5%20train__fromsearch__1#entry1125922"]http://basschat.co.u..._1#entry1125922[/url]
[/quote]

I knew I remembered that.

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1297529621' post='1125133']
He was a man of few words and although of slight frame had piercing eyes and generally appeared edgy, if not aggressive. I never saw him again.
[/quote]

Y'see, that 'mystery buyer' was Captain Future, Man of Tomorrow and he knew he'd get a better deal on the bass in an alternate reality, which is where he f***ed off to and I met him there during my temporal feedback loop thing (see above) and he told me all about it when we had a few minutes off between killing space lizards and Hitler.

Glad I could help clear that up.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited August 26, 2012 by skankdelvar

[Mr. Foxen]

PM me the timewaster's name, I'd appreciate not having to deal with them, even if policy is not to publicise them.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346017909' post='1784255']
One time, a guy agreed to trade a bass and was really enthusiastic, I wasn't available to do the deal so I sent the Mrs out on a long train journey to do the deal. Guy turns up and basically lays into the bass and says it's not as described even though I provided over 30 photos of the bass and an in-depth description. He took advantage of my Mrs ignorance over the actual advert and refused a trade. I left bad feedback as it cost me a lot of money and care to get the Mrs there and make it up to her. I left bad feedback, he started harassing me and sent threatening text messages to me and the Mrs. He got banned eventually and he stopped contacting me. Frightening experience, absolute loon.
[/quote]

Playing Devil's Advocate... Aren't you guilty here of doing exactly what you are arguing to stop?

The potential buyer of your bass will no doubt have has his view of the transaction and he may well have felt that he was being pressured into buying a bass that wasn't as described (I stress I am simply offering an 'alternative' view of the transaction), folk might well think 'what kind of bloke sends his wife to do a deal with a stranger on a bass'! He could well be within his rights to leave you negative feedback as it is your word against his that the bass was as described... but a transaction wasn't concluded because he felt that the bass was misrepresented. Yes/No?

PLEASE understand I am not casting aspersions, simply pointing out that it 'could' be (mis)construed that you may have misused the feedback system in the way that you are saying it shouldn't be used OR if honest open feedback had been left by both parties then individuals could make there own mind up.

Oh and I have no axe to grind nor do I know or have any affinity to persons involved in any transaction!

...just saying!

[Shockwave]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346059175' post='1784505']
Playing Devil's Advocate... Aren't you guilty here of doing exactly what you are arguing to stop?

The potential buyer of your bass will no doubt have has his view of the transaction and he may well have felt that he was being pressured into buying a bass that wasn't as described (I stress I am simply offering an 'alternative' view of the transaction), folk might well think 'what kind of bloke sends his wife to do a deal with a stranger on a bass'! He could well be within his rights to leave you negative feedback as it is your word against his that the bass was as described... but a transaction wasn't concluded because he felt that the bass was misrepresented. Yes/No?

PLEASE understand I am not casting aspersions, simply pointing out that it 'could' be (mis)construed that you may have misused the feedback system in the way that you are saying it shouldn't be used OR if honest open feedback had been left by both parties then individuals could make there own mind up.

Oh and I have no axe to grind nor do I know or have any affinity to persons involved in any transaction!

...just saying!
[/quote]

Because money had already been spent in travel costs and I had proof of those costs (£40). Which as I mentioned before is a valid reason for leaving bad feedback. I have already stated that this is a valid reason [b][i]multiple[/i][/b] times in this thread. The guy already knew my Mrs would be doing the trade on my behalf and he had no problem with that.

As I said, I posted multiple photos of the bass of all of the wear and tear and a very in depth description. In fact you can read that ad here.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/76324-fsft-pedulla-mvp5-last-chance-final-reduction-to-l800/page__p__761838__hl__pedulla%20mvp5__fromsearch__1#entry761838"]http://basschat.co.u...__1#entry761838[/url]

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346012640' post='1784153']
Sorry guys.

If no transaction has taken place, no feedback can be left. A deal is not done until it is done. Timewasting happens and It has happened to me many times at the cost of selling a bass. Deal with it, its part of using internet classifieds.
[/quote]

Perfect answer and the way I read the first post it was the seller who pulled out, should the other party who was told it would be on hold and was (probably) trying to raise the money also leave feedback?
I understand the reason foasking with another buyer but not being able to come up with the funds to buy something doesnt warrant bad feedback IMO. One was messed about and one was let down.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346017909' post='1784255']
I wasn't available to do the deal so I sent the Mrs out on a long train journey to do the deal. Guy turns up and basically lays into the bass and says it's not as described even though I provided over 30 photos of the bass and an in-depth description. He took advantage of my Mrs ignorance over the actual advert and refused a trade.
[/quote]

You should have never sent your wife to do the trade. If you weren't available yourself, you should have re-arranged. As you say, she does not know about the goods, and you don't know who you are sending her to meet.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='billyapple' timestamp='1346065223' post='1784655']
You should have never sent your wife to do the trade. If you weren't available yourself, you should have re-arranged. As you say, she does not know about the goods, and you don't know who you are sending her to meet.
[/quote]

She is quite capable of looking after herself and any trade is done in a very public place. She knew the bass she was supposed to be trading for and the right questions to ask. Shes happy to do it for me and to be honest me having someone else to do the trade on my behalf has very little to do with bad feedback.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346063457' post='1784621']
You should really read the thread before pointing out something like this to the guy who helped write the guidelines.
[/quote]

I did read the whole thread and yes I read the part about money being spent but what I was pointing out (unsuccessfully it would seem) was that the other party could theoretically have equally 'claimed' that you wasted his time and money (I've no doubt he had to drive to the meet). I'm not wishing to get into a debate on your transaction, I am simply trying to highlight the fact that in ANY transaction there are two sides to a story and it is an almost impossible task to simply say that there is a black and white line between what constitutes a transaction/expenditure of money that would allow feedback and what doesn't.

I have to confess that I find it slightly arrogant that just because you helped write the guidelines that you feel that they must be 'absolute' and that they can't be simply discussed or even challenged. It is (I would have thought) in the best interest of any community's interest to refine and consider such matters. Though I do know that at the end of the day it is ultimately up to the person who owns the rights to Basschat to decide and adjudicate on these guidelines and that is fine and dandy but I'd like to hope that it could be seen that open debate on such matters is healthy. Yes/No?

[Shockwave]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346065538' post='1784665']
I did read the whole thread and yes I read the part about money being spent but what I was pointing out (unsuccessfully it would seem) was that the other party could theoretically have equally 'claimed' that you wasted his time and money (I've no doubt he had to drive to the meet). I'm not wishing to get into a debate on your transaction, I am simply trying to highlight the fact that in ANY transaction there are two sides to a story and it is an almost impossible task to simply say that there is a black and white line between what constitutes a transaction/expenditure of money that would allow feedback and what doesn't.[/quote]

My Mrs went to meet him at his hometown station. So no, he did not have to pay for travel (Or at best a small amount for petrol unless he walked) I had proof that we had spent a lot of money getting there and had a watertight advert you should look at it if you haven't.) Then he started sending harassing voice mails and texts to both our numbers. So bad that we had to get the police involved. I think it was totally deserved bad feedback.

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346065538' post='1784665']
I have to confess that I find it slightly arrogant that just because you helped write the guidelines that you feel that they must be 'absolute' and that they can't be simply discussed or even challenged. It is (I would have thought) in the best interest of any community's interest to refine and consider such matters. Though I do know that at the end of the day it is ultimately up to the person who owns the rights to Basschat to decide and adjudicate on these guidelines and that is fine and dandy but I'd like to hope that it could be seen that open debate on such matters is healthy. Yes/No?
[/quote]

Debating about the topic is fine and I haven't prevented it from happening (I haven't closed the thread or made any thread edits apart from moving it to the correct sub forum), but I haven't heard any decent suggestions that are practical, or workable and I have given valid reasons as to why they wouldn't work.

Please see this post I made from earlier.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/185225-under-what-circumstances-would-you-leave-negative-feedback/page__view__findpost__p__1784301"]http://basschat.co.u...ost__p__1784301[/url]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346022110' post='1784301']
Either way, if anyone can think of a better/more feasible policy then I would like to hear it. Pm me with your suggestions.
[/quote]

Trust me I more then anyone would love to be able to tell who is a serial time waster/tyre kicker. But in the interests of preventing witch hunts or slandering people who had genuinely good reasons for pulling out we cannot allow feedback where a transaction has not occurred.

If someone had a system where they could weed out genuinely good reasons from bad reasons why people pull out of deals, I would like to hear about it. But I don't think it is possible.

[b]What I WOULD encourage people, is to think before contacting a seller/buyer. [/b]

[b]Have you got the funds? Do you have something to trade and would be 100% happy to go through with it? Are there any forseeable big changes coming in your life soon that may prevent this from happening? Do you really need/want the item in question? [/b]

[b]If you are unsure that you want the item 100% LET THE OTHER PARTY KNOW IN THE FIRST MESSAGE. So all parties know that a deal may not actually occur and everyone is on the same page. [/b]

[flyfisher]

So basically, negative feedback is hardly ever going to be acceptable for "deals" that are done face to face because when the item in question is examined it will either be fine (so the transaction happens) or something will happen such that one party will pull out of the "deal" and thus no transaction would have occurred, so negative feedback is not allowed.

While I accept there may be 'force majeure' reasons for the "deal" failing, it would be very easy for the affected member to state that in reply to any negative feedback, in which case other BCers could form their own opinions.

But there are many other reasons why the "deal" could fall through, resulting in no transaction, that would, IMHO be worthy of negative feedback. For example, after arranging to meet up to do the "deal" . . . .

- seller doesn't turn up - no transaction
- buyer doesn't turn up - no transaction
- item is not as described, so buyer pulls out - no transaction.
- buyer tries to drop the previously agreed price, so seller drops out - no transaction
- seller tries to increase the price, so buyer drops out - no transaction

. . . all examples of no transaction because of poor behaviour from one party or the other, which would all remain unknown due to the current feedback rules.

[Mr. Foxen]

Feedback goes two ways, if someone is chucking about unwarranted negs, and generally acting like a tit, I'm happy to know that and not deal with them. Definitely a disservice to restrict feedback that is of interest to potential traders. Even if they can't put it into public, they can still be a nutpain not in public, and that is relevant to people anticipating dealing with them in future.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1346067730' post='1784718']
So basically, negative feedback is hardly ever going to be acceptable for "deals" that are done face to face because when the item in question is examined it will either be fine (so the transaction happens) or something will happen such that one party will pull out of the "deal" and thus no transaction would have occurred, so negative feedback is not allowed.

While I accept there may be 'force majeure' reasons for the "deal" failing, it would be very easy for the affected member to state that in reply to any negative feedback, in which case other BCers could form their own opinions.

But there are many other reasons why the "deal" could fall through, resulting in no transaction, that would, IMHO be worthy of negative feedback. For example, after arranging to meet up to do the "deal" . . . .

- seller doesn't turn up - no transaction
- buyer doesn't turn up - no transaction
- item is not as described, so buyer pulls out - no transaction.
- buyer tries to drop the previously agreed price, so seller drops out - no transaction
- seller tries to increase the price, so buyer drops out - no transaction

. . . all examples of no transaction because of poor behaviour from one party or the other, which would all remain unknown due to the current feedback rules.
[/quote]


If either the seller or buyer does not turn up, and money is involved with travel costs that's fine. But if they don't turn up for a genuinely good reason such as a death in the family, or financial emergency It would be unfair to leave bad feedback because of that.

If your meeting up and the item is not described and you incur costs then yes, Bad feedback can be left. However mistakes can be made, dings can be missed in the description by accident, truss rods could be seized without knowing etc maybe the buyer though it was a particular shade of colour but when they saw it in real life it wasn't quite right.

As to haggling, that is an institution. It is why I put "Firm" on all of my prices if I don't want any haggling and remind buyers that I will not haggle at any stage.

If the seller increases the price etc on meetup (Which I have never heard of happening) or if you have other problems, pm a mod and we will try to solve this in private.

In very rare occasions we have allowed bad feedback where a transaction has not technically occurred for grave infractions or deals gone sour and that's the best I can give you at the moment.

I will however take this time to remind everyone though that Basschat holds no responsibility for any transactions that have occurred or deals gone sour.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346068061' post='1784725']
Feedback goes two ways, if someone is chucking about unwarranted negs, and generally acting like a tit, I'm happy to know that and not deal with them. Definitely a disservice to restrict feedback that is of interest to potential traders. Even if they can't put it into public, they can still be a nutpain not in public, and that is relevant to people anticipating dealing with them in future.
[/quote]

Opening up the feedback forum for non transactions/time-wasting will cause slanging matches, poor/non valid reasons for bad feedback and an large increase in moderator intervention.

If there was a system we could put in place where genuine time wasters were found to pull out of a deal for a non genuine reason (And we could 100% verify it) then I would like to hear it.