jaydentaku Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hi chaps Our singing sings flat, bit of a fundamental issue that one. I could rabbit on for ages, explaining the details and the thoughts I have had, but I will keep this brief. Given the nature of the band, it is not viable to look elsewhere, this is purely for fun. I can sing the note well myself and I recon the best way to broach the issue, it to speak to him one to one and ask if he fancies going through the notes with me and the guitarist. i can't think of a less humiliating way to do this. Any ideas? cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I like a joke approach. Me: Hey there Mr Singer! I've got an idea. Why not do V1 in E, V2 in e flat, do the choruses in F and the Outro in B sharp Singer: How the feck will I do that?? Me: Just do exactly what you did last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Get him to sing into a recording device while wearing headphones which is playing the song, if its covers then the version of the song you are basing your version on as long it is in the correct key for the singer. Play back his vox along with the backing track and listen to it with him/her. If your singer can't hear the problem at that point then it might not be worth trying to tutor them - they need to accept there is a problem to begin with, that's more than half the battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 can they hear themselves? when doing PA and you had a "bad" backing singer you had two options. turn them down so they wouldn't ruin the whole thing, or turn them up (esp in their foldback) so that they could actually hear themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydentaku Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 We don't do covers and he can here himself. We have recorded an ep and we have various live recordings. He hasn't mentioned anything about it. He is tone deaf seemingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Get him to invest in one of these [url="http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1043"]http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1043[/url] Your guitarist wouldn't dream of playing his guitar without the use of effects - so why would a vocalist expect to sing dry. It has reverb, delay, compression, voice doubling (and trebling) and crucially ......... voice correction. I have one which I use mainly for the effects, but also use the voice correction, in very light mode, when I'm singing difficult numbers. Turns a modest performer into a wow sounding pro. Maybe you could even buy it for him as a present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1340877114' post='1710791'] Get him to invest in one of these [url="http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1043"]http://www.bossus.co...?ProductId=1043[/url] Your guitarist wouldn't dream of playing his guitar without the use of effects - so why would a vocalist expect to sing dry. It has reverb, delay, compression, voice doubling (and trebling) and crucially ......... voice correction. I have one which I use mainly for the effects, but also use the voice correction, in very light mode, when I'm singing difficult numbers. Turns a modest performer into a wow sounding pro. Maybe you could even buy it for him as a present. [/quote] I took my daughter and her friends to a gig last week and the singer was using one of these. Was wondering what it was, thought it was a guitar pedal at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydentaku Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 lol! like it! I shall do some research Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfinbernard Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think I would have to flat out ask him if he realised he was singing a bit flat. I suppose if time has gone on it becomes a bigger deal to say that someone has been singing flat *all this time* but if it's starting to bother you this much (which it's bound to) you don't have too many options. Offer any and alll help with anything that will help him, it will be more difficult for him to be pissed off with you if he sees you are more than willing to take time to work on it with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1340877114' post='1710791'] Get him to invest in one of these [url="http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1043"]http://www.bossus.co...?ProductId=1043[/url] Your guitarist wouldn't dream of playing his guitar without the use of effects - so why would a vocalist expect to sing dry. It has reverb, delay, compression, voice doubling (and trebling) and crucially ......... voice correction. I have one which I use mainly for the effects, but also use the voice correction, in very light mode, when I'm singing difficult numbers. Turns a modest performer into a wow sounding pro. Maybe you could even buy it for him as a present. [/quote] I've got one of them Nice bit of kit - as always though, bin the presets and start from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 That Boss doohinky looks like it would be ideal for BVs, too... yet more kit to be buying. Hooray! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I think there are a variety of vocal 'cheat boxes' around, worth shopping around. I think TC were in on this quite early on (Helicon voicelive?) but their stuff isn't cheap. As a distinctly average singer/bvox I've been quite tempted myself in fact. The comparison Dark Lord makes with guitar stomp boxes holds up fine for effects but do they have boxes that auto corrects a guitarists bum note? if so I'll have one! Last time I saw one of these used effectively was with a guy working in a trio where he did all the vox (plus bass, no it wasn't Geddy). By using it sparingly to bring in harmonies on chorus sections of songs it really had an impact. I can't recall which one he used, def not the Boss it was some really old unit, poss Japanese, that was long out of production. Edited June 28, 2012 by KevB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12stringbassist Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Just tape a rehearsal and all sit and listen to it back. Saying 'Oooo, you were a bit pitchy there' is a gentle nudge. Good luck - there's no cure if he's tone deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I would advocate recording. You can use a free plugin called GSnap to look at the pitch of the vocal line if it's on its own track. The plugin is designed for pitch correction, but actually shows a live graphical output of the singer's pitch (of course melodyne will do this but its costs money). Then you will have something to point at and show him if he accuses you of hearing things. BTW if you're looking at vocal pedals, don't forget Digitech's Vocalist range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary mac Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I've been in this situation in the past and found that we were all pussy footing around the singer but it's just ridiculous really. A singer who can't sing in tune is no good to anyone. Just makes the whole band look/sound bad. I like the Fretmeister's approach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Sometimes it due to lack of monitors and sometimes it's due to lack of ability. If the singer can hear themselves and they still sing out of tune then it's lack of ability and there's not much you can do. Simon Le Bon from Duran Duran couldn't sing to save his life and it didn't stop him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Having said that - if you played the wrong notes, the rest of the band would tell you immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Not many people are tone deaf. Can he tell the difference between a barking dog or a twittering bird? If not it can be worked on. Tell him to try earplugs - bit like putting your fingers in your ears. In my experience ts really about monitoring. If not, just practice. It's true there is a massive difference between good and bad singers but I think anyone who wants to put a bit of time in can become ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 How does the Boss box know how to do pitch correction? Do you tell it what key you're playing in and it corrects to the nearest note in the scale? Do you have to play at concert pitch for that to work? How does it deal with key changes, accidentals, and blue notes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I've just heard from this singer moaning about his band plying sharp all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1340884724' post='1710973'] How does the Boss box know how to do pitch correction? Do you tell it what key you're playing in and it corrects to the nearest note in the scale? Do you have to play at concert pitch for that to work? How does it deal with key changes, accidentals, and blue notes? [/quote] It either sticks you to a particular key (which can be difficult in some songs) - or it keeps you to genuine notes in a chromatic scale. Simples. Works fine for me. Although, I would question if it would be right for really complicated vocals. Also, there is a knob which dials in the amount of the affect from slight to robotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1340884724' post='1710973'] How does the Boss box know how to do pitch correction? Do you tell it what key you're playing in and it corrects to the nearest note in the scale? Do you have to play at concert pitch for that to work? How does it deal with key changes, accidentals, and blue notes? [/quote] I can't speak for the Boss unit specifically, but the Digitech version I have listens to the note you're singing and corrects it to what it thinks you should be singing based on either a pre-programmed key (just majors and minors and pretty useless IMO) or a chromatic mode. The chromatic mode is usually enough for most singers if they're nearly on pitch but not quite. The digitech can also follow guitar chords (there is a MIDI version for keys), allowing you to control what key it thinks you're in by the chord. Great for key changes, and if you want to sing an accidental you can play a given chord including that accidental and it should pick it up. Disclaimer is that I don't use the pitch correction but it uses the same detection algorithms to add the harmonies in, and the tracking seems to be ok. Edit: I see the TDL has covered the Boss pedal, same idea I guess. Edited June 28, 2012 by Commando Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I'd personally go for the straight out with it approach, in a non aggressive manner just mention "you were a little sharp there (in places), can you hear your self ok?". As some one said earlier, the singer would be quick to tell the band if they played something wrong. Just tell him, but be relaxed and constructive about then you shouldn't get thrown through the wall. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='jaydentaku' timestamp='1340875730' post='1710739'] Our singing sings flat, bit of a fundamental issue that one...... Given the nature of the band, it is not viable to look elsewhere, this is purely for fun. [/quote] Interesting- I'm in the same position , actually the last 2 bands I've been in have been purely for fun and in both cases the singer has been terrible TBH I dont know what to suggest IMHO there are a few choices : Either put up with it and just regard it as fun - which is what I did both times although TBH after a year or so it does begin to get to you a bit Try to do backing vocals to help him out - never an option for me I just cant sing Have it out with him - although I have no idea how to do this tactfully Sorry I cant be of more use - let us know how you get on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 [quote name='jaydentaku' timestamp='1340876633' post='1710774'] He is tone deaf seemingly [/quote] A few weeks of this will sort him out. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/179951-the-tritone-paradox/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/179951-the-tritone-paradox/[/url] Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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