shizznit Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 One of our agencies book for this venue. We don't often travel that far west unless it's a wedding booking. Thanks for the heads up just in case the agency approach us with a booking there. We're a 9-piece, so it sounds like we couldn't fit in there (the aggro doesn't seem worth it anyway!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thats terrible. You should follow it up and make them pay - even for the sake of other bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Shame for the OP and my commiserations. Sounds like an entirely amateurish operation that wants to have it both ways. Placing a 16 cover dinner party right in front of a band is the mark of the idiot. 16 + 3 = 19 rightly pissed-off people. On the upside, it's cost the venue a fair slab of wedge and they've got a bad rap here so f*** 'em. I've no doubt there'll also be some negatives comment on the local restaurant review site. [i]Is[/i] there such a thing as omnomnomswansea.com? [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited March 12, 2012 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 +1 for small claims court, although I doubt it would get that far. They're not going to want to go to court over it. You had a verbal contract which they've broken and they haven't got a leg to stand on. The fact that they let you finish before refusing to pay is outrageous. They obviously thought you were good enough to play for the whole evening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 If they overfilled the venue there might be legal issues there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 [quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1331490585' post='1573678'] Small claims court fella, should an easy win. [/quote] this +1 breach of (verbal) contract write to advise them first giving them 14 days to sort it out otherwise you will take matter to small claims court - dont forget to include the gig fee and a "reasonable admin fee"- and if youre feeling really cheeky you could include a bit of wear and tear on the PA from the damage caused by drunk persons on their premises and if they make it a long tedious drawn out process just copy the whole thing in to the local council licensing officer for good measure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 It seems to me that if they weren't going to pay you they should have told you at the time the punters left and not used your services before letting you know they weren't paying. I sympathise. I'm no expert but take the advice of someone who is and if it's favourable go for the small claims court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibody Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 BORROWED FROM A GUARDIAN ARTICLE: British libel laws were already complicated enough before the internet came along. Their aim is to balance the right of free speech against protection for the reputation of an individual from unjustified attack. In law, a person is defamed if statements in a publication expose him to hatred or ridicule, cause him to be shunned, lower him in the estimation in the minds of "right-thinking" members of society or disparage him in his work. Juries are told that the measuring stick of a libel being committed is whether any of this would affect how a "reasonable man" views the complainant. There are defences in law for libel. The publisher could prove the statement to be true, it could be fair comment - so long as the opinion is based on true facts, is genuinely held and not influenced by malice - or it could be protected by privilege (reporting of comments made in parliament, courts and other official arenas are, generally speaking, protected from libel actions). Since the 1998 Reynolds claim against Times Newspapers, it has become accepted that material published in the public interest is a further defence in libel proceedings. The problem for anyone preparing to publish information which may be defamatory, is that the laws are very much open to interpretation. Different juries will have different views on what exactly influences a right-thinking man. What is certain is that the legal costs of defending a libel action will be considerable, often running into hundreds of thousands of pounds. The loser almost always has to pay the costs of the winner, plus any damages awarded to the claimant. In effect, fighting libel cases is an expensive game of chicken, which newspapers are often reluctant to enter into, even when they believe they have a strong case. The emergence of the internet has further complicated the issue. Individuals now have a simple way of putting their writings online - with little or no review or vetting. Over the past decade, forums and online chats have introduced a new genre of writing, that in effect provides a written record of raw, impulsive conversations where most participants have paid scant consideration to any legal implications. Furthermore, internet postings can be read anywhere, bringing into question issues of jurisdiction. The internet has also been seen as a place where people can express themselves anonymously, although the rise of successful online child pornography and grooming prosecutions has raised awareness of the trail left by ISP addresses. Finally, there have also been past doubts about who is the actual publisher of online information and what, if any, protection they should have from being sued. In print, the primary publisher is the newspaper and any libel action would normally be directed against the author or editor or both. It is rare, though not unheard of, for the shop which sold the publication, known as the secondary publisher, also to have to pay out. The issue with online articles is whether the publisher is the person who runs the website, or the ISP which hosts it. So technically a venue could not only sue the person making the claims, but also the owners of BassChat. Just palying Devils Advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjay69 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thats rather typical of Swansea, it's an angry place, i know, im from there. Saying that it wasnt like that in my day when we played the likes of the Singleton, the Cardiff arms Coach house etc proper music loving pubs, 2 of which are closed now of course.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwoff Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I would of refused to leave and had they refused to pay completely would of then smashed the place up. Something I call the 'lads on tour' school of dealing with non paying venues. Failing that employ a manager to argue for you, when we were but young nippers my brother and I had a band going, I was 16 me brother was 14, we had a friend who was an 18 year old (looked late 20's) built like a brick outhouse, dreadlocked metaller. The couple of times venues refused to pay he got our money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 [quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1331562715' post='1574821'] It seems to me that if they weren't going to pay you they should have told you at the time the punters left and not used your services before letting you know they weren't paying[/quote] I'd have got the hint to expect non-payment at this point............... [quote name='BigBassBob' timestamp='1331489430' post='1573645']The management come up to us and say with a great deal of venom "you just cost us £500 worth of orders."[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 [quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1331492199' post='1573719'] If the owner had come up to me with that attitude after giving us no space, I'd have packed up and gone home. Simple [/quote] And told him to go a drink a big cup of f*ck*ff! [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1331498415' post='1573858'] In a situation like that I always go to the manager and get them to move people. If they don't move people then my band doesn't play - that's up to them (but we still get paid). If they can't move people there and then we're happy to wait until they go and then set up and play until closing time - but we still get the money promised. [/quote] Yep, in any bands I`ve been in, we never tell people to move - that`s the job of the owner/manager. If they show as being unwilling, the alarm bells ring to the types of problems encountered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1331546357' post='1574335'] I was thinking the same. Just a list of bad venues with links to relevant threads. Keep the detail out of the blacklist thread itself. [/quote] I have already seen a site somewhere that does this. Anyone know anything about it.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Maybe a thread where we can individually rate venues. Like a "tripadvisor" type thing but for musicians by musicians. Every time you play a venue you can rate it for helpfulness, attitude, payment, crowd etc etc and at the end it gets a score. Venues like this would soon find themselves bottom of the pile and as it's based on actual experiences of various players its hardly libelous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumbo Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 What if we had some kind of thread for reviewing venues that BC'ers have played at. There could be a template for the review that is carefully thought out to avoid potential slander issues whilst at the same time providing the forum with useful information on experiences. Maybe just something simple that rates a few key criteria out of . Perhaps it's better to treat this kind of thing as a 'review of a venue'. People review bands, I don't see why can't we review our experiences too. It's obviously completely wrong that anyone should work an agreed job and then get ripped off. I'd want to know about venues that mistreat the musicians they employ. Knowledge is power, or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1331661568' post='1576818'] Maybe a thread where we can individually rate venues. Like a "tripadvisor" type thing but for musicians by musicians. Every time you play a venue you can rate it for helpfulness, attitude, payment, crowd etc etc and at the end it gets a score. Venues like this would soon find themselves bottom of the pile and as it's based on actual experiences of various players its hardly libelous. [/quote] Trouble with this is imagine it in reverse. Bandadvisor.com - a site for landlords to slate i mean rate bands. Imagine the landlord of this place and what he might say. Gigs like this are all part of the experience unfortunately and hopefully its a lesson learned. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how sh*t a venue is because you will always find a band willing to play there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1331569433' post='1574995'] I would of refused to leave and had they refused to pay completely would of then smashed the place up. [/quote] Affirmative action! PS: send in the ninjas Edited March 13, 2012 by daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1331668888' post='1576986'] Gigs like this are all part of the experience unfortunately and hopefully its a lesson learned. [/quote] Sorry but I disagree with this. It is very rare for a band to not be paid at all and is totally unacceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Believe it or not I just found out a similar thing happened to us on Friday night (I had to leave in a hurry - not in a bad way). The bar had been empty - 5 people the whole night. The manager didn't tell us not to play so we cracked on and played a good set for the 5 people there, who appeared to enjoy it. It turns out that at the end the manager refused to pay on the grounds that he hadn't made any money and we didn't bring anybody with us. What's more - my band colleagues went along with this. I'm a bit annoyed about it. Other than that we get on well with the staff in this place so I do understand wy they didn't want to make a big fuss, still Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin7 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1331674985' post='1577123'] Sorry but I disagree with this. It is very rare for a band to not be paid at all and is totally unacceptable. [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='CBbass' timestamp='1331549109' post='1574401'] It's a nice idea but isn't it a little libellous? Anyway, see if you have a case in a small clams court... if not then go there, rack up a bill of the amount due and say it was awful service + food and refuse to pay . [/quote] +1 Did this at a works beano last Saturday night, where the restaurant had consistently bounced cheques on us. They were just presented with an invoice to cover our bill at the end of the night. It's not a criminal matter so the police won't be interested. You just have to leave your name and address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1331678526' post='1577211'] It turns out that at the end the manager refused to pay on the grounds that he hadn't made any money and we didn't bring anybody with us. [/quote] the venue manager cant dictate the terms of the contract after the event to suit himself it is reasonable to expect a band to turn up and play in a consumate manner - it is unreasonable to expect the band to be time travelling mind readers and anticipate that the venue manager would come up with such a crass excuse after and as a consequence of low attendance/takings - if venues are going to take the attitude that bands are expected to bring along a reasonable number of punters to put money over the bar then the venue need to specify it explicitly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1331713626' post='1577417'] it is reasonable to expect a band to turn up and play in a consumate manner - it is unreasonable to expect the band to be time travelling mind readers and anticipate that the venue manager would come up with such a crass excuse after and as a consequence of low attendance/takings - if venues are going to take the attitude that bands are expected to bring along a reasonable number of punters to put money over the bar then the venue need to specify it explicitly [/quote] Quite so.... that was my argument. If they guy wasn't going to pay us we could have had a gentlemanly discussion about it before we started playing. As the bar scene seems to be generally going down the toilet, I think we'll see a lot more of this kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1331674985' post='1577123'] Sorry but I disagree with this. It is very rare for a band to not be paid at all and is totally unacceptable. [/quote] You can disagree but i think you'll find that this kind of thing has been happening for years and will continue to happen. Ironically the very next post to yours is from another chap who suffered from the same fate. I agree its unacceptable but over time you learn to avoid these gigs/landlords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1331721474' post='1577564'] You can disagree but i think you'll find that this kind of thing has been happening for years and will continue to happen. Ironically the very next post to yours is from another chap who suffered from the same fate. I agree its unacceptable but over time you learn to avoid these gigs/landlords. [/quote] Sorry to say, but I have not been paid on many occasions...even at a pro level at reputable venues, so it's more common than some folks may think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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