bass_ferret Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 [quote name='Bassassin' post='170374' date='Apr 5 2008, 06:41 PM']I could be bitchy & suggest that Adele's performance demonstrated the idea that technical ability & tasteful playing cannot raise production-line stage school me-too blandness above what it actually is. But I won't. [/quote] Chuckle. Surely you mean Brit School Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 [quote name='silverfoxnik' post='170296' date='Apr 5 2008, 03:45 PM']Mrs Silverfoxnik worked for The Cure for years, so I'd best not say anything[/quote] I will - they were f***ing brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 Ok, so I've just watched through this twice on and all I can say is that Estelle (as a band) were the best thing on the show and the highlight was the bass man. Especially the section with the slides when it breaks down after the "noisy" bit. I've often debated with people that I listen to music completely differently from them because I'm picking out the bass lines but I think there comes a point where you can "over analyse" way too far. IMHO the song was cool, it "worked" at a faster tempo, the band held it together really well and the bass became the lead instrument without falling into a w***y solo bass trap. As far as James Taylor is concerned, I reckon he's a nice support guitarist for Carole King every now and then - and he should be grateful for the stage space with such a seriously talented singer/songwriter. .. . . . . PS - Did anyone else notice his clapping appallingly out of time on the intro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 [quote name='molan' post='170507' date='Apr 6 2008, 12:10 AM']PS - Did anyone else notice his clapping appallingly out of time on the intro?[/quote] Funny you mention it, but I did notice he was way back on the beat- not randomly out of time tho. Maybe he had a brain freeze as the camera panned across him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170380' date='Apr 5 2008, 06:50 PM']Chuckle. Surely you mean Brit School [/quote] I was speaking in general & non-specific terms, but yes, that's precisely what I mean. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 I thought estelle american boy was the highlight of the show,especially the bassisit.it was great to see someone obviously enjoying themselves.Imho i thought he broke things up well,i also liked the slidy bit after the noisy bit hehe.Both myself and my son,(he's a 12 year old drummer)got a kick out of the bassist.So what if he's not the greatest player ever born,i thought he was amzing.Mr Jamerson was all over the verse and chorus like a rash but i'll bet that Motown wouldnt have had the successes it did without that style of playing,its kinda the point.Think Tower Of Power.Im with jakesbass on this one,creit where credits due,to find fault from the comfort of the living room is the easiest thing in the world to do.As a funskster of 35 years and counting i hope and im sure he'll be an inspiration to the next generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='molan' post='170507' date='Apr 6 2008, 12:10 AM']IMHO the song was cool, it "worked" at a faster tempo, the band held it together really well and the bass became the lead instrument without falling into a w***y solo bass trap.[/quote] The band did not hold it together - they were out of time as in not all playing to the same beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Bassassin' post='170374' date='Apr 5 2008, 06:41 PM']As far as your second point's concerned - that's an interesting discussion in itself. I think my perspective would be that the [i]song[/i] is the music, and it's the playing which makes or breaks the song. Using the show's examples, the Only Ones performed their own material badly - reducing songs which are regarded by some as classics of their era to cringeworthy rubbish. Estelle's bassist arguably compromised his singer & band's performance with unnecessary & inappropriate showboating.[/quote] It is indeed an interesting discussion, and further, can be drawn along lines of, not only that the playing can make or break the song, as you say (and I agree). But is the personality intrinsically linked with what is produced? Eg. does a horrible person play horribly? does a selfish person, just play for themselves? Do guitarists egos [i]always[/i] occupy 4/5ths of the stage ? There are some really notable examples of this (not that I'm sure I have proof either way) Apparently both Ben Webster and Stan Getz were really nasty guys, Jamerson was at least violent and was a lot of the time armed, Keith Jarrett is a phenomenal talent but a truly objectionable, obnoxious human being. Thoughts anyone, or is this for another thread. Jake Edited April 6, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='kennyrodg' post='170586' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:15 AM']Mr Jamerson was all over the verse and chorus like a rash but i'll bet that Motown wouldnt have had the successes it did without that style of playing,its kinda the point.[/quote] Cant recall Jamerson every playing out of time though, so busy with his chops he lost the beat. The funk brothers were always tighter than a gnats chuff. If you blokes cant here Estelle bass losing the beat then I glad I dont have to play with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170590' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:33 AM']The band did not hold it together - they were out of time as in not all playing to the same beat.[/quote] I've just listened again, and I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep repeating that opinion, they were a bit loose in the rap, other than that it [i]was [/i] busy, but the notes were evenly spaced there was no speeding or slowing by any band member, the tempo was maintained throughout, the backbeat was rigidly on the click (there was a click) therefore whatever they had on track was never out of time with what they played (or rather the other way around) A few people have made that assertion, but no-one has substantiated the claim with any descriptive evidence. As i said in an earlier post I am (whilst trying not to pontificate) reasonably experienced both professionally and in education and I can find very little evidence of what is being suggested. If people don't like it fine, but don't make sh*t up about people if you cannot substantiate the claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170600' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:49 AM']Cant recall Jamerson every playing out of time though, so busy with his chops he lost the beat. The funk brothers were always tighter than a gnats chuff.[/quote] Thats absolutely true [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170600' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:49 AM']If you blokes cant here Estelle bass losing the beat then I glad I dont have to play with you.[/quote] thats complete bollox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 I've deleted it off my sky box and the HD rerun last night didn't work so I can't give you chapter and verse. All I know is that rhythmically it was a mess and did not get tight until the last verse. I guess some people have got rhtyhm and some have not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170612' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:16 AM']I've deleted it off my sky box and the HD rerun last night didn't work so I can't give you chapter and verse. All I know is that rhythmically it was a mess and did not get tight until the last verse. I guess some people have got rhtyhm and some have not.[/quote] If you want to, you can hear it again on iplayer. but I have the feeling you will decline because you apparently lack the analytical skills and decency to back up your mud slinging. And I would guess that you can't give me chapter and verse, because you can't give me chapter and verse. Edited April 6, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='170612' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:16 AM']I've deleted it off my sky box and the HD rerun last night didn't work so I can't give you chapter and verse. All I know is that rhythmically it was a mess and did not get tight until the last verse. I guess some people have got rhtyhm and some have not.[/quote] [quote name='jakesbass' post='170615' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:21 AM']If you want to, you can hear it again on iplayer. but I have the feeling you will decline because you apparently lack the analytical skills and decency to back up your mud slinging. And I would guess that you can't give me chapter and verse, because you can't give me chapter and verse.[/quote] Calm down folks - it's only a piece of music we're talking about.. There's a lot worse stuff happening in the world for us to get heated about.. Look at this awful, awful stuff going on with China & Tibet or Zimbabwe! This is just a difference of opinion about music, so let's just keep it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='silverfoxnik' post='170647' date='Apr 6 2008, 12:28 PM']Calm down folks - it's only a piece of music we're talking about.. There's a lot worse stuff happening in the world for us to get heated about.. Look at this awful, awful stuff going on with China & Tibet or Zimbabwe! This is just a difference of opinion about music, so let's just keep it at that. [/quote] point taken Nik, as it happens I'm not heated, I just tend to say when I think something's unfair. Apologies to anyone whose sentiments are more delicate than mine (which is most people) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golchen Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 I'm quite suprised at where this thread has gone! I spend a lot of time at a 'famous technical guitar player's' forum, and it often degenerates into this sort of thing. No matter how good an artist in question is, there's a lot of spouting off at the fact that a piece is not perfect to the nth degree, and many posters seem to lose sight of the fact that we are talking about music and not measuring a piece of engineering to 1 thou spec. As far as the Estelle performance goes, I really enjoyed it, especially the bass playing. Now I don't have the discerning ear that some of you guys have, but I do think some of you are analysing and criticising way beyond the pallette of most listeners ears (mostly non-musicians). Sometimes music gets too technically perfect and loses it's character. There's nothing wrong with striving for technical excellence, particularly with the rhythm section, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of peoples enjoyment of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 In my experience, flame throwers just get off on the attention. Especially ones who are openly abusive to admin. Ignore the comments and you'll starve them of the oxygen they crave so much. You can use the ignore function on your user control panel if you like. Drop me a PM if you need any help. You can also make it known to others in a thread that you've set the user to ignore and maybe others will do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='kennyrodg' post='170586' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:15 AM']Mr Jamerson was all over the verse and chorus like a rash[/quote] We talking the same Jamerson here... Or someone from a Tribute Band.? Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmandan Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='Golchen' post='170729' date='Apr 6 2008, 03:09 PM']I'm quite suprised at where this thread has gone! I spend a lot of time at a 'famous technical guitar player's' forum, and it often degenerates into this sort of thing. No matter how good an artist in question is, there's a lot of spouting off at the fact that a piece is not perfect to the nth degree, and many posters seem to lose sight of the fact that we are talking about music and not measuring a piece of engineering to 1 thou spec. As far as the Estelle performance goes, I really enjoyed it, especially the bass playing. Now I don't have the discerning ear that some of you guys have, but I do think some of you are analysing and criticising way beyond the pallette of most listeners ears (mostly non-musicians). Sometimes music gets too technically perfect and loses it's character. There's nothing wrong with striving for technical excellence, particularly with the rhythm section, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of peoples enjoyment of music.[/quote] +1 let's not forget it was all live, my experience of these things (not actually appearing on L with JH btw) is such that it may take one or two numbers to really get into the pocket, on this show you've got to stand around listening to everyone else play/chat etc. and immediately jump into your tightest ever playing without any chance to warm up and get in that Zone. 4-5mins later it's all done, it really can't be that easy can it?!? nice curtains Golchen btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 As the starter of this thread it's quite disappointing to read such inanity. I have an excellent ear for timing and if I didn't notice any noteworthy problems then in my opinion (and my opinion of course is bigger, better and more badass than yours) then there weren't any. Those who believe there is only one way to play on the beat should really open their minds and consider the power of different members of the band placing their notes in different places around the beat, playing with different amounts of swing or shuffle, and varied accenting. It struck me that Estelle's band were trying to recreate the cut and pasted feel of sample laden modern r&b and therefore the tensions and resolutions in the groove structure made total sense. And even if their groove intentions were not totally fulfilled that does not prohibit the music from happening - decades of successful, innovative but arguably messy yet moving music has shown that. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 Finally succumbed to watching the clip... The feel/rhythm/where they placed the beat was quite different to a lot of pop/mainstream stuff, twas nice to hear something original there. I didn't spot any glaringly obvious timing errors; there was a few (literally 2, maybe 3) points where I thought 'oh, are they slightly out? did someone mess up?' but it was so quick and so slight that I may have just imagined it or been overly sensitive to it. I agree with whoever said it got sloppy in the rap. It was more than a little messy during that, going into it and then throughout. With regard to the rest of show, did anyone else find most of the artists quite painful to listen to? I was genuinely vocalising 'ooo, that's painful' throughout all the other acts. The only two I could actually listen to were James Taylor and Adele. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bassmandan' post='170778' date='Apr 6 2008, 04:45 PM']+1 let's not forget it was all live, my experience of these things (not actually appearing on L with JH btw) is such that it may take one or two numbers to really get into the pocket,[/quote] +1 I've done plenty of TV, live and pre recorded, It is for sure a pressure situation and bass players suffer more than many as their role relies so heavily on steadiness, which is easily undermined if one does not feel comfortable. Edited April 6, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='lowdown' post='170764' date='Apr 6 2008, 04:23 PM'] We talking the same Jamerson here... Or someone from a Tribute Band.? Garry[/quote] Sorry lowdown,i feel i may have been slightly misunderstood,i meant in a good way.im a big motown fan,i was practically breast fed it. BITTY MUMMY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='170858' date='Apr 6 2008, 07:01 PM']With regard to the rest of show, did anyone else find most of the artists quite painful to listen to? I was genuinely vocalising 'ooo, that's painful' throughout all the other acts. The only two I could actually listen to were James Taylor and Adele. Mark[/quote] We have a long way to go to catch up with our American cousins when it comes to live performance. If you consider Letterman, American Idol, Jay Leno and just about any live studio performances you find on American TV they are leaps and bounds ahead of what we accept over here. Hence James Taylor putting in a good performance, BTW if anybody here has not heard the live JT Album from the early nineties then they should, to my ears one of the best live albums around. Some of our TV bands are pretty good eg Laurie Holloway but those American bands kick ass, groove, time, feel, play anything, read anything, attitude, badass muthas. Edited April 6, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 [quote name='kennyrodg' post='170876' date='Apr 6 2008, 07:27 PM']Sorry lowdown,i feel i may have been slightly misunderstood,i meant in a good way.im a big motown fan,i was practically breast fed it. BITTY MUMMY [/quote] No Mate... I knew what you were meaning.... It was the wording that tickled me.. Sort of thing i would have said , and then read it back and thought... 'Oh no!' Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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