EskimoBassist Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 To me, being in tune is really important. It's being OUT of tune that really kills a vibe for me, and unfortunately I've shared the stage with many musicians who haven't bothered to check before playing. Shudder, shudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='EskimoBassist' timestamp='1318258343' post='1399763'] To me, being in tune is really important. It's being OUT of tune that really kills a vibe for me, and unfortunately I've shared the stage with many musicians who haven't bothered to check before playing. Shudder, shudder. [/quote] +1 I remember before digital tuners how dreadful some bands did sound. Also tuners have helped players to adjust the intonation on their instruments far more easily than before, so that they played in tune as well as in concert pitch. Anyone remember seeing footage of The Stones tuning up in a caravan just before their 1969 Hyde Park gig? Poor old Mick Taylors first gig with the band in front of 250,000 people too! The band were barely in tune most of the time - (still sounded great though!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelg Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100414' post='1398153'] [b]Digital Tuners - Have They Killed The Vibe?[/b] Had a discussion last night about digital tuners and how, since their use has become commonplace, everyone can easily be in tune all the time. Particularly with the rise of reliable electronic keyboards and synths rather than temperamental acoustic pianos and humidity-sensitive Hammond organs, Leslie cabinets and so forth. In ye olde days, if a band had a pianist (for example) the chances were that you would need to tune up to the piano, which hopefully would at least be in tune with itself. And before accurate, reliable electronic tuners arrived, this would mean tuning by ear, so the chances were the overall effect would be, if not actually wrong, then harmonically slightly 'different'. About 150 years ago I seem to remember even name bands shambling on stage and proceeding to tune up in front of the audience, sometimes at length and with varying degrees of success depending on how drunk/stoned/tripping/mad the musicians were at the time. My question is, have accurate, reliable digital tuners killed some of the feel and vibe that you got from (for example), sixties and seventies live bands now that everyone is playing exactly in tune? And is this at least part of the reason why some bands can now sound a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and/or mind-bogglingly dull? Edit: Spelling. [/quote] Interesting point. With older amplifiers, especially electric guitar amps, they would often produce harmonics and/or overtones that were slightly out of tune. Did this give them a more interesting edge/vibe over other bands? maybe. I suppose its similar to the digital camera vs 35mm camera argument! Edited October 10, 2011 by Michaelg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='Michaelg' timestamp='1318263009' post='1399856'] I suppose its similar to the digital camera vs 35mm camera argument! [/quote] Yes it is! To the point where people who have only ever known digital cameras regarding 35mm as invalid and obsolete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Pitch Pipes - now they killed the vibe long ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1318268763' post='1399911'] Pitch Pipes - now they killed the vibe long ago! [/quote] ... and frets, they killed everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) I don't see how any equipment can "kill the vibe". Over reliance on a digital machine to be in tune is bonkers though. Guitars are always out of tune. That's inherent in their design and construction. Doesn't matter how hard you try to tune em, they're always gonna be slightly out of tune. That's where your ears and how good you are at bringing each note into (or out of) tune, are important. I do have a tuner, but only really use it for setups. Every band I've ever been in has only ever been bothered about being in tune with each other and somewhere near concert pitch (usually everyone takes their pitch from my bass). For recording, it's different, as overdubbing can become a right PITA if takes are slightly out of concert pitch. But that's just common sense innit? Whoever said they can't listen to early Stones as they're out of tune is a bit tonally anal. Go listen to some Woody Guthrie. Edited October 10, 2011 by bigjohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) While there's nothing cool or "real" about not being in tune, I do feel that digital tuners can be used too much as a crutch. Unless you play an instrument with [url=http://www.truetemperament.com]true temperament frets[/url] perfect tuning on chords is always going to be a bit of a compromise and needs to be tweaked to suit the song that you are playing - something that I always do when recording. However I have noticed a tendency for more guitarists to obsessively tune between songs (because they can) often to the detriment of the flow of the set. My feeling is that unless you can hear that it's out of tune, then your guitar is OK and get on and play. By all means take advantage of intros where you're not playing to do a quick check, but most of the time the sort of adjustments that they are making are too small to be of any real consequence. Their time and effort would be better spent making sure that they have a good quality instrument properly set up to minimise and tuning issues and to have an equally good and well set up spare. Edited October 10, 2011 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1318269738' post='1399930'] Whoever said they can't listen to early Stones as they're out of tune is a bit tonally anal. Go listen to some Woody Guthrie. [/quote] well, f**k you very much to you too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 True temprament. He made that up didn't he? I've heard of Equal and Mean Tone but True? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1318269738' post='1399930'] Go listen to some Woody Guthrie. [/quote] Ugh, why on earth would you want to do that? Digital tuners are great. Players with cloth ears aren't. Now AUTOtune, that's a whole different kettle of tuna, that has definitely contributed to a sterilisation of pop music IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1318275849' post='1400038'] True temprament. He made that up didn't he? I've heard of Equal and Mean Tone but True? [/quote] [url="http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php"]http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1318276038' post='1400039'] Ugh, why on earth would you want to do that? [/quote] ... because he's brilliant and out of tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1318276206' post='1400045'] [url="http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php"]http://www.truetempe.../site/index.php[/url] [/quote] Holy crap, I thought this was a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Erm yes thanks lads, that's the same link as BigRedX put up. I meant Tommy Denander made it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 First decent session I did, I tuned by ear...and then had to live with engr talking about bass being out of tune. Well, I couldn't hear it and I am sure I wasn't, but went straight out and bought one after that. I wasn't confident enough or experienced enough to argue with him..which I would do so now..but then I would have a tuner to hand anyhow. Why make things complicated for yourself.... ? It shouldn't even be an issue now .. and that should be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318276503' post='1400052'] Holy crap, I thought this was a joke! [/quote] Another product in the long list of Sanke Oils produced by people who believe without understanding and bought by people with more money than sense. Edited October 10, 2011 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1318276609' post='1400057'] First decent session I did, I tuned by ear...and then had to live with engr talking about bass being out of tune. Well, I couldn't hear it and I am sure I wasn't, but went straight out and bought one after that. I wasn't confident enough or experienced enough to argue with him..which I would do so now..but then I would have a tuner to hand anyhow. Why make things complicated for yourself.... ? It shouldn't even be an issue now .. and that should be a good thing. [/quote] That's the problem with engineers. They can hear pins drop a mile away, tell you what mic was used to hear the pin drop, how old the tape was that they recorded the pin dropping and what the resonant frequency of the vibrating pin was. Leave them to recording and let us worry about the notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Looking back..I think he was trying to impress the client and get more work from them..and I was the fall guy. Anyway, learnt that lesson, bought the tuner, end of issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1318276260' post='1400047'] ... because he's brilliant and out of tune. [/quote] He probably is brilliant to be fair...but for me he's in a box with Dylan, Springsteen and assorted others who I will never, ever enjoy listening to no matter how hard I try. Different strokes. Plenty of great jazz with rather sketchily intonated double bass. But on fretted electric, you can always add a bit more 'vibe' just bending the note. There you go, problem solved. Until the engineer autotunes it out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1318276588' post='1400054'] Erm yes thanks lads, that's the same link as BigRedX put up. I meant Tommy Denander made it up. [/quote] Ah, I misunderstood, and yes very possibly. I'm a Precision with ordinary frets kind of guy myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) re the True Temperament fret thingies [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1318276692' post='1400058'] Another product in the long list of Snake Oils produced by people who believe without understanding and bought by people with more money than sense. [/quote] I think in this case that's a bit disingenuous, I'm sure the guy who came up with that system has a better understanding of tune, temperament etc. than most. You should probably state this as your opinion. edit: spelling! Edited October 10, 2011 by MoonBassAlpha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1318276692' post='1400058'] Another product in the long list of Sanke Oils produced by people who believe without understanding and bought by people with more money than sense. [/quote] You obviously never play chords on a fretted instrument then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1318275559' post='1400032'] well, f**k you very much to you too [/quote] You is welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1318282705' post='1400154'] You obviously never play chords on a fretted instrument then. [/quote] Exactly. try a digital tuner on on a nylon strung uke. Then try and get that in tune with an old acoustic six string guitar, an old banjo, even with a well intonated bass, you'd be there for hours. With your ears you can get something approximating "in tune" in minutes. Technically "In tune"? probably not. Sounds in tune? deffo does. At least for that particular song / set of chords. At least it saves getting out the micrometer, the stroboscopes and an oscilloscope each, which is the logical conclusion. Followed by giving hundreds of pounds each to Buzz Feiten. And lets not get started with open and drop tunings. They're just out of tune full stop unless you've set a guitar up for it. Tuners of any sort are a visual clue to what is essentially with string instruments, an aural perception. Which can be different due to many things the tuner doesn't pick up. Never mind the actual pitch of the note produced by each open string. Being "in tune" is relative as soon as more than one note is played simultaneously and digital tuners are by their nature, absolute. They're excellent for setups. And setups are excellent for making sure you're near enough in tune. That's about it as is far as I'm concerned. Unless I'm recording (on my own tracks). In which case, I make sure I've got a well set up bass and I'm as close to concert pitch as possible by tuning after each take, or when the other[i] less fortunate[/i] can be arsed. Big thick flatwounds on bass kept indoors, in a decent hard case tend to stay near enough "in tune". And being big and thick and with decent tuners (even the shittest), bass strings are pretty much the easiest strings (in theory) to keep well tuned in that they stay where they are when you play them. Anyway, the OP was about if digital tuners have killed the vibe. Well not. Obviously. But people using digital tuners deffo kill some vibes here and there. Or at least kill my willingness to listen to them saying something's not in tune. So the f*k what. Does it sound good? I'm thinking about getting a fretless and blowing the whole she-bang. Tell me I'm not in tune then and I'll tell you it's jazz. Edited October 10, 2011 by bigjohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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