Digital Tuners - Have They Killed The Vibe?

[discreet]

[b]Digital Tuners - Have They Killed The Vibe?[/b]

Had a discussion last night about digital tuners and how, since their use has become commonplace, everyone can easily be in tune all the time. Particularly with the rise of reliable electronic keyboards and synths rather than temperamental acoustic pianos and humidity-sensitive Hammond organs, Leslie cabinets and so forth.

In ye olde days, if a band had a pianist (for example) the chances were that you would need to tune up to the piano, which hopefully would at least be in tune with itself.

And before accurate, reliable electronic tuners arrived, this would mean tuning by ear, so the chances were the overall effect would be, if not actually wrong, then harmonically slightly 'different'.

About 150 years ago I seem to remember even name bands shambling on stage and proceeding to tune up in front of the audience, sometimes at length and with varying degrees of success depending on how drunk/stoned/tripping/mad the musicians were at the time.

My question is, have accurate, reliable digital tuners killed some of the feel and vibe that you got from (for example), sixties and seventies live bands now that everyone is playing exactly in tune?

And is this at least part of the reason why some bands can now sound a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and/or mind-bogglingly dull?

Edit: Spelling.

Edited October 8, 2011 by discreet

[BottomE]

No - being in tune is cool

[discreet]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1318100597' post='1398159']
No - being in tune is cool
[/quote]

Thanks - that's sorted that out, then.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100414' post='1398153']
... now that everyone is playing exactly in tune? ...
[/quote]
You've not seen my band then - fretless bass, slide guitar, lap steel guitar, voices, so digital tuning guarantees nothing.

Edited October 8, 2011 by EssentialTension

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1318100597' post='1398159']
No - being in tune is cool
[/quote]
True, but slightly out can sometimes be spicy.

[Len_derby]

An interesting one.
I think the mind-boggling dullness of some bands is nothing to do with the tuning. Out of tune they'd be even worse.

Perfect, 'concert' tuning only takes you so far in pop/rock/blues/jazz. The micro-tonal subtleties of African music was adopted by jazz and blues and resulted in the bending and sluring of pitches that is now an accepted part of vocal and instrumental music.
If you listen to Miles Davis he often plays sharp. I seem to recall Jack Bruce, in an interview, recomending playing slightly sharp in some circumstances to create a 'sense of urgency, and draw listeners in'.

Of course, I might be talking Boll***s as I'm on my third bottle of Old Thumper.*

I do think that having easy, cheap access to good quality digital tuners has de-skilled us for 'by ear' tuning. But that's another topic.

* Does a brisk walk to 'Cheap Booze n' Fags' and back count as healthy exercise?

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100414' post='1398153']
[b]Digital Tuners - Have They Killed The Vibe?[/b]

Had a discussion last night about digital tuners and how, since their use has become commonplace, everyone can easily be in tune all the time. Particularly with the rise of reliable electronic keyboard and synths rather than temperamental acoustic pianos and humidity-sensitive Hammond organs, Leslie cabinets and so forth.

In ye olde days, if a band had a pianist (for example) the chances were that you would need to tune up to the piano, which hopefully would at least be in tune with itself.

And before reliable electronic tuners arrived, this would mean tuning by ear, so the chances were the overall effect would be, if not actually wrong, then harmonically slightly 'different'.

About 150 years ago I seem to remember even name bands shambling on stage and proceeding to tune up in front of the audience, sometimes at length and with varying degrees of success depending on how drunk/stoned/tripping/mad the musicians were at the time.

My question is, have reliable digital tuners killed some of the feel and vibe that you got from (for example), sixties and seventies live bands now that everyone is playing exactly in tune?

And is this at least part of the reason why some bands can now sound a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and mind-bogglingly dull?
[/quote]


???? NO!!!!

I detest hearing a band playing out of tune. It's something that makes me grit my teeth when listening to some old Rolling Stones, for instance...
Why would playing in tune be a bad thing???

If a band sounds bland, boring and soul-less... blame the band and their music, not the fact that they do it in tune. Between bland music out of tune or bland music in tune, the latter would be only boring whilst the former would be irritating as well as boring.

[BottomE]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100645' post='1398161']

Thanks - that's sorted that out, then.
[/quote]



I know where you are coming from but i can remember being in really busy pubs/clubs and it being really difficult to get in tune with someone who you suspect wasn't in tune in the first place. Did a recording session recently with a string section and blimey - it took ages to get a take when they were all in tune.

Vibe aside they certainly save time.

[Green Alsatian]

I used to tune my bass to whatever record I was playing along with. I'd also tune to my mate's guitar when I'd have a jam around at his. I'll use a digital tuner when I get the bass out of the gigbag and if it gets knocked out of tune, I'll usually go from my mate's keyboard.

I do prefer tuning to another instrument, but for a gig, I'll use the tuner before going on-stage - I don't like seeing bands tuning up when they get on-stage and should already have started playing.

[TimR]

Possibly. But I think the real story is that protools and endless takes has made recorded music too perfect. We've forgotten what live music should really be and too many people are trying to present an exact copy of what they hear on a recording.

Rather than being spontaneous and creative they play the same thing week in week at at practices and gigs.

What you are hearing as dull and lifeless playing is just dull and lifeless playing from instrument owners who can copy something exactly but don't actually understand what they are playing.

[discreet]

I don't necessarily mean [i]way [/i]out of tune to the point where it's painfully obvious, but a more subtle effect... I have played in a band with a brass section consisting of trumpet, tenor/baritone sax and trombone and they would sometimes deliberately play (very slightly) out of tune with each other, which resulted in a much fatter overall sound.

[discreet]

[quote name='Green Alsatian' timestamp='1318102393' post='1398187']
I don't like seeing bands tuning up when they get on-stage and should already have started playing.
[/quote]

I agree and you don't see this so much now, but it was quite usual in the seventies, for example. I saw old footage of a TREX gig on TV recently and Bolan spent quite some time tuning up on stage before their set. Nowadays an extremely professional and co-ordinated show is expected as a bare minimum, even from unknown artists.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318102740' post='1398193']
I don't necessarily mean [i]way [/i]out of tune to the point where it's painfully obvious, but a more subtle effect... I have played in a band with a brass section consisting of trumpet, tenor/baritone sax and trombone and they would sometimes deliberately play (very slightly) out of tune with each other, which resulted in a much fatter overall sound.
[/quote]

Yes. This will be what is known as 'beats'. Where two or more soundwaves that are very close to each other in frequency create a throbbing effect when the waves cross over each other. It does sound very tasty in a horn section.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318103001' post='1398198']

I agree and you don't see this so much now, but it was quite usual in the seventies, for example. I saw old footage of a TREX gig on TV recently and Bolan spent quite some time tuning up on stage before their set. Nowadays an extremely professional and co-ordinated show is expected as a bare minimum, even from unknown artists.
[/quote]

All part of the style of the times. We used to sit crossed-legged on the floor too, all polite and waiting to be enthralled
Also, whatever the 'vintage' market may try and tell us, there was a lot of crappy instruments about then. I know, I used to own some of them.

[Wolverinebass]

Sod that. I was in a band with a guitarist whose guitar just would not stay in tune and seemingly never owned a tuner. I bought him one as I got so sick of it. I then had to tell him to buy a new guitar that had decent intonation. The brilliant thing in that band was that we never did "set arrangements" and every night we played the songs would maybe be slightly longer or shorter. I don't mean just going over 3 chords jamming here, I mean very tangental. That sort of stuff is the sort of musical chance taking I live for. However, it becomes nerve shredding when you realise you're playing a song that with a bit of jamming there isn't a chance in hell that you're guitarist's axe will stay in tune for the duration of it. Nightmare.

I think that Tim R's comments are right on. I actually get disappointed when artists play songs exactly as they are recorded. What's the point?!! As John Entwistle famously said "set arrangements are only fun the first 5000 times...."

[daz]

It possibly depends how out of tune they are with [i]each other[/i]. If they were all tuned to an out of tune piano or organ, it might be perfectly fine. On the other hand i may have no idea what im talking about.

[discreet]

A cursory Google ('digital tuner kills vibe') brings up this question asked during an interview with the producer Tony Platt which I thought may be interesting:

[size=2][b]What piece of technology do you think has been the most detrimental in the evolution of the recording realm?[/b][/size]

[size=2]'It would be the digital guitar tuner. When I first started, there were no guitar tuners, guitarists would tune to the piano, as the piano was always in tune in the studio. And so the guitar players always had the capacity to hold a guitar in tune. If they heard a string going out, they’d pull it a little bit to bring it back in. So things weren’t absolutely perfectly in tune but there wasn’t this focus of attention on the tuning so much. People were focusing on getting the feel right and getting it to where it was exciting. Now what happens is one string goes out of tune, everything stops, guitarist plugs into his tuner, tunes his guitar and then starts off again, but it has broken the momentum of the session so much. And again what happens is we have this overabundance of guitar players who have this overriding reliance on this piece of technology. They’re not thinking of tuning in their head, they’re not hearing the tuning in there, they’re looking at it, on the scale on the tuner.'[/size]

Interesting... hadn't thought about the effect a tuner may have on the momentum of a recording session.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318107947' post='1398254']
A cursory Google ('digital tuner kills vibe') brings up this question asked during an interview with the producer Tony Platt which I thought may be interesting:

[size=2][b]What piece of technology do you think has been the most detrimental in the evolution of the recording realm?[/b][/size]

[size=2]'It would be the digital guitar tuner. When I first started, there were no guitar tuners, guitarists would tune to the piano, as the piano was always in tune in the studio. And so the guitar players always had the capacity to hold a guitar in tune. If they heard a string going out, they’d pull it a little bit to bring it back in. So things weren’t absolutely perfectly in tune but there wasn’t this focus of attention on the tuning so much. People were focusing on getting the feel right and getting it to where it was exciting. Now what happens is one string goes out of tune, everything stops, guitarist plugs into his tuner, tunes his guitar and then starts off again, but it has broken the momentum of the session so much. And again what happens is we have this overabundance of guitar players who have this overriding reliance on this piece of technology. They’re not thinking of tuning in their head, they’re not hearing the tuning in there, they’re looking at it, on the scale on the tuner.'[/size]

Interesting... hadn't thought about the effect a tuner may have on the momentum of a recording session.
[/quote]


I remember reading in a biography of Paul Weller that when the Jam recorded All Mod Cons or maybe Setting Sons, their producer Vic Coppersmith-Heaven, I think) said "I wished Paul wouldn't insist on using Rickenbackers. They just won't stay in tune!! We must have wasted 3 whole days just tuning them."

[Spike Vincent]

Digital tuners are far more convenient than tuning forks.

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318107947' post='1398254']
A cursory Google ('digital tuner kills vibe') brings up this question asked during an interview with the producer Tony Platt which I thought may be interesting:

[size=2][b]What piece of technology do you think has been the most detrimental in the evolution of the recording realm?[/b][/size]

[size=2]'It would be the digital guitar tuner. When I first started, there were no guitar tuners, guitarists would tune to the piano, as the piano was always in tune in the studio. And so the guitar players always had the capacity to hold a guitar in tune. If they heard a string going out, they’d pull it a little bit to bring it back in. So things weren’t absolutely perfectly in tune but there wasn’t this focus of attention on the tuning so much. People were focusing on getting the feel right and getting it to where it was exciting. Now what happens is one string goes out of tune, everything stops, guitarist plugs into his tuner, tunes his guitar and then starts off again, but it has broken the momentum of the session so much. And again what happens is we have this overabundance of guitar players who have this overriding reliance on this piece of technology. They’re not thinking of tuning in their head, they’re not hearing the tuning in there, they’re looking at it, on the scale on the tuner.'[/size]

Interesting... hadn't thought about the effect a tuner may have on the momentum of a recording session.
[/quote]


That sounds very black and white to me. Having a tuner does not mean you do not develop your ears, at least not if it's true you have any passion for music.
I use tuners a lot, for gigs, recording... it doesn't kill any momentum, it takes a second, the tuner is online always on... But I also play a lot without a tuner and I adjust as my ears tell me... I find the quote above a bit overdramatic, to be honest.

[ZMech]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100414' post='1398153']And is this at least part of the reason why some bands can now sound a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and/or mind-bogglingly dull?
[/quote]
Pretty sure I watched a programme about The Eagles, in which the other California bands complained they were too clinical. Are all those adjective you listed really a new occurrence?

[LukeFRC]

I think some of it is about how your brain hears the music.

For example.... C major is so predictable and familiar, hear it all the time. Ebm less so

I play at church and it sometimes seems ALL the songs are in C, G or D - so one week we mixed things up a bit and played each song in a different key to normal, quite a lot of them on the sharps and flats, and the music seemed more alive- it wasn't the same as always.

How much more with slightly different pitches if the whole band tunes a bit sharp or something?

[KiOgon]

I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix band live when Jimi started playing, Noel thinking WTF's he playing & tuning his P on the fly while trying to keep up. [s]Ginger[/s] Mitch just carried on - smmmokin - regardless.

You definitely don't get that today

[color=#0000ff]Reason for edit:[/color] [color=#00ffff]A senior moment[/color]

Edited October 9, 2011 by KiOgon

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1318111938' post='1398300']
I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix band live when Jimi started playing, Noel thinking WTF's he playing & tuning his P on the fly while trying to keep up. Ginger just carried on - smmmokin - regardless.

You definitely don't get that today
[/quote]

You've not seen my other band then - guitarist off on one, drummer off on another one, and me wondering what's the key and where's the one.

EDIT: BTW, Ginger who?

Edited October 8, 2011 by EssentialTension

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1318100414' post='1398153']
... And is this at least part of the reason why some bands can now sound a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and/or mind-bogglingly dull? ...
[/quote]
I don't think so, I think they probably sound 'a little anodyne, clinical, bland, boring, unexciting, uninspiring, uninteresting and/or mind-bogglingly dull' because they are those things. However, there seem to me to be plenty of bands today who aren't anodyne clinical etc. Anyway, something you find mind-bogglingly dull I might well praise rather highly and vice versa.