Dave Vader Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Apologies for this, but I can't rant about this online anywhere else, or they'll find out some truths they don't need to know, they're nice enough people and I don't want to upset anyone, but I do need to rant a bit. Thank you BC. And on with the post.... So once again I have abandoned a group of people who believed themselves to be better than they were. Does this make me some kind of egomaniac rock star type? Is my opinion of myself too high that I do not wish to be associated with them? I do not know. Here is my tale of woe…. I joined an originals band back in May, hoping to have a bit of a laugh, play some cool gigs and meet some interesting people. It was not too bad, there were a few little mistakes, the singer seemed to suffer from some onstage nerves, but nothing that I didn’t think couldn’t be ironed out. We did some gigs, they were fun. I wanted it to work, as we had some really good stuff lined up, we were playing at the Sonic Rock Solstice in Wales, and had a support slot with Balaam and the Angel lined up in October at the 02 academy in Islington. I was understandably quite chuffed about this. However, as the gigs went along, the guitarist/songwriter/bloke with all the contacts getting us the gigs was still failing to keep hi s guitar in tune, and failing to know how to play his own songs. This was worrying, as was the fact that I was beginning to suspect that the singer was not so much nervous and missing notes, more that she was unable to hit the notes in the first place. Worse was the fact that the 4 bands I have been playing in have been increasingly annoying the wife, who complains that she never sees me, she has a point, so something was going to have to give. One of these bands is a one off for Hatherleigh Festival in a fortnight, so that’s not a problem, it’ll be over soon enough. One is my long standing 80s tribute the Spaced Invaders (who I’ve been wanting to get out of for ages, but can’t afford to, as it’s a bloody good earner) the other is just a bunch of old mates back in Bideford, who I am playing guitar with again, which is a great deal of fun. So trying to drop one has been a difficult decision, lose something I was enjoying, or drop a fair chunk of my income. Anyhow, before we played in Taunton last weekend, I messaged the guitarist/leader about a possible double booking, having seen the venues lemonrock page had a different band advertised. Legitimate concern I thought. He sent me back a page of links to adverts he’d put up, and crawler websites that had picked them up claiming that was proof that the gig was still on. In the same breath admitting that it wasn’t on the venues own website either. A simple “okay, I’ll give them a bell and check it out” was all I wanted, quick check, it’s a hour and a half drive there, and I had a heavy enough weekend without this bloody gig to do if it was off. Remember, this is on originals money, not the good stuff I decided that if they still couldn’t play or sing their own songs, I was going. Drummer eventually checked it for me and gave me a straight answer, hoorah! We did the gig, the support band were the best flipping band I’ve seen in a long time the Tiny Face Experience, if you get the chance, go and see them, bloody great they were. Which was a shame, as we were utter crap, even worse than usual. To the point where a chap I had never met before came up to me after the gig and said “Nice bass playing mate, good drumming too…” very pointedly, and then had a long conversation with me about how great a frontman he would make for the band. This was not the first person I had this conversation with after gigs. I said my goodbyes to the band, stayed polite, and left as if nothing had happened, and then went all 21st century and facebook dumped them on Saturday, citing money and time difficulties as the only reason, as I mostly trade off of my affable nice guy image and try not to upset anyone. It’s all a bit of a shame, as the drummer was brilliant and a top bloke (I confided my real reasons to him, he understood, and said he’d thought about it as well). Interestingly, they still want me to finish laying down my bass parts for the album, which is quite cool, as I can do that from home and send them across to the guitarist/songwriter/smug fat git to finish off. Again, legendary easy going nice bloke to work with, has to agree to a little request like 4 ickle bass lines. No real point to posting this here, but I can’t put it on my blog, or facebook, or google+ in case they come across it, as they are okay people and I don’t want to upset them. I’m just still baffled by people who believe themselves to be more talented that they are, and can’t hear the evidence when it’s right in front of them. Surely if you keep making the same mistakes, on your own songs, you’d go away and work on it til you get it right? Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I've never understood when people can't hear that they're playing badly. I cringe every time I hit a bum note, even on stage, my mind boggles at how someone might not even realise. Sounds like you made the right choice, it was never going to make it anywhere and if the other two bands are bringing money and fun, they're worth sticking with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Rehearsals and band meets are the places where you can disect everything and I think it is healthy to work on where the song or songs are going...or not..in relative privacy. In this regard you can tell someone their part isn't working...as you would in the studio...and if done properly, this should enhance the band not allow little things to fester. As for the rest... well, it clearly wasn't working and that is close enough..they might have had issues with you, but not said...and that doesn't help the situation either. I would have left ages ago or not got involved from the off. In the audition type stage where you get to get to hear how things are going to work...it pretty much needs to be all in place there and then..and all that should be allowed for is a tidy-up. If at this stage you have concerns... I would focus on if they can improve...but a few rehearsals will do this...so no hanging around after that. It is ALL about the music..and if that doesn't work on most levels..the position is not tenable, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) You should stop wimping out and hiding behind the [i]"i dont want them to know im not all cool and nice'[/i] thing tell them straight Zeesh! If it gets on your nerves they cant play there own stuff (and it would get on mine) then tell them. Maybe they will have a few things to say to you. Who cares.? its not gonna be of world shattering import. jus my two bobs worth. ps: Be aware that a few clicks was all it took for me to find out the bands identity. If i can do that so can others. It would be difficult to follow you back to here, but if someone in or around the band was so inclined it could be done. I agree she cant sing, except in monotone. Edited July 19, 2011 by daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think the right choice has been made. It`s bad enough hitting blatant wrong notes on covers all the time, as it should be possible to hear that they are wrong, but to actually do that on their own songs - well I don`t understand that at all. Sure, everyone can make a mistake, but this has obviously gone on for a while, hence the post. Sounds to me like a severe lack of practising at home. I experienced this in a band too. Lead guitarist would mess up the solo, and say "I`ve not picked up my guitar since the last gig/rehearsal". I always saw two questions there: 1 - why haven`t you played your guitar since last gig/rehearsal, seeing as you know you`re in a band? 2 - you`ve been playing the songs for six years, how come you`ve not learnt them properly yet? Back to the original topic, it could also be complacency feeding the non-practising. You`re starting to get better gigs, the old ego from these guys may be coming into it - we don`t need to bust a gut, look at what we`re getting at the moment type of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Bands are great If you don't practice and don't listen to yourself, you will never improve. It's hard to tell friends they are crap though too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 [quote name='Dave Vader' post='1308383' date='Jul 18 2011, 08:31 PM']So once again I have abandoned a group of people who believed themselves to be better than they were.[/quote] A long long time ago I was in a north Devon band who did Fairport Convention covers, and honestly, really believed themselves to be better than Fairport at their own material. There is no communicating with people who think that way. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='ficelles' post='1308698' date='Jul 19 2011, 01:53 AM']...better than Fairport at their own material...[/quote] No-one, but no-one, sang or sings better than Sandy Denny..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Never mind man, you weren`t happy for whatever reason so what`s the point if it`s not fetching a few quid in? You know you are always going to have to ration your gig time carefully to avoid domestic strife so this was a good decision. I reckon players in originals bands sometimes think that as it`s their songs, they can play them how they like, even if that`s considered to be "wrong" according to consensus and it does sound like Quality Control was set a little low here. One door closes, another opens... MM p.s what`s happening with the rusty Hondo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every originals band that is serious about it needs a manager and a producer, AND needs to listen to them. There's a lot of misguided talent out there, it's a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1308395' date='Jul 18 2011, 08:44 PM']I haven't read the whole thing yet BUT!! With that line you might want to ask the Gods if they will move this to Off Topic. General is viewable by non-members and turns up in google.[/quote] Yeah, but there's bound to be bassists on here who have met the chap, and recognise him (he's got through a few in his time) it might get back to him in the end. I'm not all that bothered if it does, to be honest. Just leave it long enough for the dust to clear. [quote name='daz' post='1308395' date='Jul 18 2011, 08:44 PM']You should stop wimping out and hiding behind the "i dont want them to know im not all cool and nice' thing tell them straight Zeesh! If it gets on your nerves they cant play there own stuff (and it would get on mine) then tell them. Maybe they will have a few things to say to you. Who cares.? its not gonna be of world shattering import. jus my two bobs worth. ps: Be aware that a few clicks was all it took for me to find out the bands identity. If i can do that so can others. It would be difficult to follow you back to here, but if someone in or around the band was so inclined it could be done. I agree she cant sing, except in monotone.[/quote] Fair point, I can admit the wimping out card. But you know how you can tell which people will take criticism well, and whether they can cope or not. I think they're happier in their own world, they have a group of mates and sycophants around them that make them happy, so I'll leave it with that. [quote name='JTUK' post='1308395' date='Jul 18 2011, 08:44 PM']Rehearsals and band meets are the places where you can disect everything and I think it is healthy to work on where the song or songs are going...or not..in relative privacy. In this regard you can tell someone their part isn't working...as you would in the studio...and if done properly, this should enhance the band not allow little things to fester. As for the rest... well, it clearly wasn't working and that is close enough..they might have had issues with you, but not said...and that doesn't help the situation either. I would have left ages ago or not got involved from the off. In the audition type stage where you get to get to hear how things are going to work...it pretty much needs to be all in place there and then..and all that should be allowed for is a tidy-up. If at this stage you have concerns... I would focus on if they can improve...but a few rehearsals will do this...so no hanging around after that. It is ALL about the music..and if that doesn't work on most levels..the position is not tenable, IMO.[/quote] It was the lack of rehearsing that I liked, we'd done 2 gigs before we ever rehearsed in the same room. I like that kind of "skin of your teeth" situation, when we finally got to rehearsing, I realised that any suggestions would be ignored quickly. Shame, I think 3 months is a long enough/short enough time for anything. Though you could be right, it is the first gig I ever got without playing a note to anybody, that should have set off alarm bells. [quote]p.s what`s happening with the rusty Hondo?[/quote] I got the bridge off last night, Johnston's jml thing got 3 screws out, and the other 2 got drilled. A little more fiddling and I should have it done, pics next week if I get round to finishing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 i'd never do an originals gig without being totally happy at at least one rehearsal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I think really it's not worth worrying about. If they really can't cast a critical eye over their own playing/singing even having listened to recordings of themselves then that's clearly their problems. They will just wonder why it is they can't get any better than they are now, even though it's plain for everyone else to see what the problem is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I reckon you should have [b]insisted[/b] that you organise a few one-on-one practices with the guitarist and the singer on their own to really iron out inconsistencies. Coming from a tech/death/prog metal background; missing notes, playing out of tune etc etc was ironed out by meticulously playing the same riffs over and over again at varying tempos until everything was perfect. If anything, those sorts of sessions highlight to poor musicians/vocalists that they simply can't hack it/need to practice and it makes it easier for other band members to point out that persons shortcomings. I just think you could have made more of an effort to save the band. But, whatever, you already have another three bands that you say you prefer playing with for various reasons. Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Truckstop' post='1308994' date='Jul 19 2011, 12:20 PM']I reckon you should have [b]insisted[/b] that you organise a few one-on-one practices with the guitarist and the singer on their own to really iron out inconsistencies.[/quote] I considered it, but after thinking about it the effort involved would have been pointless, sometimes you can tell that people aren't going to manage it. Plus some people are not good at criticism, he is one of them, he sulks when he makes a mistake, rather than the usual laugh it off and try not to do it again attitude that I'm used to. Also, they're a bit long in the tooth to change now. Beware Goths bearing backing tracks, 2nd time I've been burned by such a set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Possibly a different thread, but why don't people practice at home? Every Tuesday I get a note from our guitarist confirming that he's forgotten everything we worked on the previous Weds; he's not touched his guitar; and we'll need the first half of the session to catch-up and work it all out. Every Tuesday; as a pre-amble to rehearsal every Wednesday. I've fired an e-mail back to the effect that groveling this early in the day gives him tonight to sort this sh*te out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I suppose I'm just lucky I never get any of this sh*t. We had a couple of people in one band who were sandbagging. They were requested to leave and replaced quickly after a couple of months of being given their chance to shine. Music is too expensive, time consuming and important for people who can't pull their weight equally with the other band members. Edited July 19, 2011 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-string-thing Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Dad3353' post='1308727' date='Jul 19 2011, 04:05 AM'] No-one, but no-one, sang or sings better than Sandy Denny..![/quote] This is true! Fairport were an amazing band around 1969/70... The worlds best folk fiddler, guitarist and singer all in one band! Not to mention Dave Pegg! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Gust0o' post='1309076' date='Jul 19 2011, 01:07 PM']Possibly a different thread, but why don't people practice at home? Every Tuesday I get a note from our guitarist confirming that he's forgotten everything we worked on the previous Weds; he's not touched his guitar; and we'll need the first half of the session to catch-up and work it all out. Every Tuesday; as a pre-amble to rehearsal every Wednesday. I've fired an e-mail back to the effect that groveling this early in the day gives him tonight to sort this sh*te out.[/quote] Have you considered sending him an email every monday reminding him to go through everything from last wednesday so he's ready for when you get there this week? [quote]I suppose I'm just lucky I never get any of this sh*t. We had a couple of people in one band who were sandbagging. They were requested to leave and replaced quickly after a couple of months of being given their chance to shine. Music is too expensive, time consuming and important for people who can't pull their weight equally with the other band members.[/quote] Totally agree, unfortunately when the people not pulling their weight are those who put the whole thing together, it's time to wander off yourself. Especially when they may in fact be working as hard as they can, and therefore are just unable to get to the standard I tend to expect. I've seen a lot of original acts round here that are equally as bad, and their fans/member don't seem to notice/care which makes me think it could be me. I've been doing this for over 20 years now, don't have the time or the energy to argue anymore, and I'm never short of offers of work, so I am quite lucky to be able to walk from one thing into another most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Dave Vader' post='1309230' date='Jul 19 2011, 03:00 PM']... I've seen a lot of original acts round here that are equally as bad, and their fans/member don't seem to notice/care which makes me think it could be me. I've been doing this for over 20 years now, don't have the time or the energy to argue anymore, ...[/quote] No, the song remains the same it's just the players that have changed. When I was playing originals in the 80s it was exactly the same. People will talk the talk but not walk the walk. Bands are happy pretending to be rock stars. They get to play in front of their mates and their mates get to say their mate is a really good (guitarist/singer/drummer/bass player/other). The music is secondary, it's all about the hang. If the band is playing gigs and the audience turn up and seem to like it then that is all that counts. I think Nigel is in a different situation as he is backing quality singer/songwriters who are getting quality players to back them, rather than a bunch on no hope wannabes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='TimR' post='1309248' date='Jul 19 2011, 03:17 PM']No, the song remains the same it's just the players that have changed. When I was playing originals in the 80s it was exactly the same. People will talk the talk but not walk the walk. Bands are happy pretending to be rock stars. They get to play in front of their mates and their mates get to say their mate is a really good (guitarist/singer/drummer/bass player/other). The music is secondary, it's all about the hang. If the band is playing gigs and the audience turn up and seem to like it then that is all that counts. I think Nigel is in a different situation as he is backing quality singer/songwriters who are getting quality players to back them, rather than a bunch on no hope wannabes.[/quote] +1. That's exactly what it is like with my mate's band. They're happy to play the same venue in Hull over and over again. Their singer is out of tune, their bass player can't play properly (luckily they're getting a better one) and every time they're asked to play a different venue, they suddenly have to cancel at the last minute because the singer gets a cold (can't see how it would make him any worse tbh lol) or everyone is busy doing something else so they're really destined to end up playing the same place over and over again because no where else is going to take them seriously. That's just what some bands are like. Not worth worrying about, at least you tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='TimR' post='1309248' date='Jul 19 2011, 03:17 PM']No, the song remains the same it's just the players that have changed. When I was playing originals in the 80s it was exactly the same. People will talk the talk but not walk the walk. Bands are happy pretending to be rock stars. They get to play in front of their mates and their mates get to say their mate is a really good (guitarist/singer/drummer/bass player/other). The music is secondary, it's all about the hang. If the band is playing gigs and the audience turn up and seem to like it then that is all that counts. I think Nigel is in a different situation as he is backing quality singer/songwriters who are getting quality players to back them, rather than a bunch on no hope wannabes.[/quote] All true sadly. I am too old to want to pretend to be a rock star now, just want to play GOOD music, with other people who can, don't care if nobody's watching as long as it is either a) innovative challenging or c) paying me a lot of money. Preferably all 3, though I'm generally lucky to get just one of them. I remain incredibly jealous of Nigel, yet unwilling to leave my comfy Devonshire surroundings in search of decent gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='TimR' post='1308789' date='Jul 19 2011, 08:59 AM']I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every originals band that is serious about it needs a manager and a producer, AND needs to listen to them. There's a lot of misguided talent out there, it's a shame.[/quote] This. btw the OP doesn't mention how good the songs are. If they're very, very good maybe that changes things a bit. Otherwise... not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='fatback' post='1309297' date='Jul 19 2011, 04:01 PM']This. btw the OP doesn't mention how good the songs are. If they're very, very good maybe that changes things a bit. Otherwise... not.[/quote] They're alright, I rather liked them, still find myself humming them a fair bit. Recorded it's an ok band, not spectacular, but ok. Which is a step up from what I've been doing for the last few years in dire cover outfits. I would have liked to help a bit more with the writing as well, not just being sent a demo and being told to work something out a bit like what had already been laid down by the guitar player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote name='Dave Vader' post='1309230' date='Jul 19 2011, 03:00 PM']Have you considered sending him an email every monday reminding him to go through everything from last wednesday so he's ready for when you get there this week? [/quote] I am tempted - but he's 35 and a Head of Department, so you'd hope he would be on top of the basics. I shall remain confounded, I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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