Compressors, do i need one?

[jonunders]

Hi,

I ues a G&L 2500 through a Markbass lm111 and a bareface compact. I am approaching my first gig and it has been suggested trying a compressor in the system to soffen out the peaks and troughs which appear in my playing, i may get a bit excited. Is this a good or bad thing or will my money be waisted. Having looked on line, which ones, sub £100 are any good and which ones should be avoided.

Thanks

Jonathan

[clauster]

Good one for <£100 to soften out the peaks. Boss LMB-3.

[krth1985]

i think they are a good idea. Some of the songs I used to play in my were fast and my technique isnt the best so it helped give me a smoother sound - but didnt completely flatten it. I use a Boss CS-3, works for me.

[toneknob]

Definitely a good idea, when used correctly. Keep your eye on the Effects for sale part of the basschat forum marketplace. Also, there's a good article in this month's Bass Player magazine (John Entwistle on the cover) about the fundamentals of the effect.

[algmusic]

I personally, think you could spend that money on maybe 3 bass lessons with a good teacher to give you some pointers on keeping a consistent groove.

I bought a compressor and have ended up not using it.. good technique is the key. It's about learning to relax.. and keeping the notes consistent the more you rely on them the worse you playing can get IMHO

The MXR Dyno Comp is a good compressor, but Like I said.. used mine last year..

[dave_bass5]

One of the best, cheap ones ive had was the BBE Optostomp. Very nice and very easy to use.

I would avoid the Aphex punch factory as this (IME) doest hardly anything.

This page has a lot do good reviews on it.
[url="http://www.ovnilab.com/index.shtml"]bongomania's Compressor Reviews[/url]

Edited June 7, 2011 by dave_bass5

[zzaass]

For the same reasons that you said you were thinking of getting one, I use a [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/rothwell.shtml"]Rothwell Love Squeeze[/url].

[ZMech]

This thread might interest you, 51mon mentions using a slight bit of overdrive to both act as a compressor and cut through, whilst not actually sounding distorted in the mix.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=138906&hl="]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=138906&hl=[/url]

[4000]

Used to have one on my old Trace 300SMX. Tried it a couple of times, never liked it. Don't really have the problem you mention though.

[xgsjx]

A few years ago I thought I wanted a compressor & was almost set on getting a Black Finger
I tried a few different ones & decided all it did was take away the dynamics from my playing & raised the noise floor (so if there was a small feint buzz before, it would be annoying with the compressor).
I do have a fairly consistent level whenever I play something & don't really suffer much from peaks & troughs & got disappointed that I wasn't going to need a compressor.
I'd go with spending the money on some good lessons.

[algmusic]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1260218' date='Jun 7 2011, 08:30 PM']A few years ago I thought I wanted a compressor & was almost set on getting a Black Finger
I tried a few different ones & decided all it did was take away the dynamics from my playing & raised the noise floor (so if there was a small feint buzz before, it would be annoying with the compressor).
I do have a fairly consistent level whenever I play something & don't really suffer much from peaks & troughs & got disappointed that I wasn't going to need a compressor.
I'd go with spending the money on some good lessons.[/quote]
+1

Finally the first person to actually agree that a compressor usually doesn't solve the actual problem

[skidder652003]

well if you're going to use one, a second hand markbass compressore is a good place to start, find them on ebay now and again, not necessarily for sub 100 quid mind!

[paul_5]

Yes.

[TomKent]

Think you can get a MultiComp for under £100 2nd hand, seriously good bit of kit. That said, the Aguilar one ain't half bad either..

[dc2009]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1259942' date='Jun 7 2011, 05:13 PM']I personally, think you could spend that money on maybe 3 bass lessons with a good teacher to give you some pointers on keeping a consistent groove.

I bought a compressor and have ended up not using it.. good technique is the key. It's about learning to relax.. and keeping the notes consistent the more you rely on them the worse you playing can get IMHO

The MXR Dyno Comp is a good compressor, but Like I said.. used mine last year..[/quote]

Gotta disagree for the point of view of live playing. You very often don't hear what the audience hears (you are typically behind the PA speakers, with yourself turned way up in the monitor), if you want to play with any feel I think you need to get 'excited' to really dig in on the louder and more forceful parts of the songs, but how much you start playing harder or faster or whatever is down to you, and yet it won't sound the same to the audience anyway. If you play uniformly all the way through just listening to your monitor I think the bass would sound stiff and get lost in the big parts.

[Randy_Marsh]

Have a look in the effects bit of the forum. Some really comprehensive stuff on compressors and which one's are better etc.

[algmusic]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1260427' date='Jun 7 2011, 10:31 PM']Gotta disagree for the point of view of live playing. You very often don't hear what the audience hears (you are typically behind the PA speakers, with yourself turned way up in the monitor), if you want to play with any feel I think you need to get 'excited' to really dig in on the louder and more forceful parts of the songs, but how much you start playing harder or faster or whatever is down to you, and yet it won't sound the same to the audience anyway. If you play uniformly all the way through just listening to your monitor I think the bass would sound stiff and get lost in the big parts.[/quote]


I could not disagree more, as you are really contradicting yourself. To simply disregard good technique for a pedal is nonsense. I agree that a band should play with dyamnics, but to simply overwrite this with compression is pointless. It's how you get the pop dribble we hear today. As someone who is constantly complemented for playing with feeling, you still have to have control, you still need good technique and if some plays with their monitor turned up with disregard to what they are playing it is still fundamentally bad technique to listen and to play. I would sometimes agree with using some effects, but not on a consistent level. It's like a drummer only playing an electric kit. they loose all sense of dynamics and feel.

[51m0n]

Can I point something out to all those here who have some belief that a compressor will remove all dynamics and render your playing lifeless, and equally to all those here who believe it will eradicate any kind of bad technique.

You are all wrong.

Really really utterly misguided and proof beyond any doubt that you don't really know how a compressor works compared to a limiter say, how it can and should be used in a live context and have not ever used a serious compressor to achieve any specific goal. In which case, don't buy a compressor a few days before a gig, and expect it to work miracles.

A compressor, unless set up to completely extreme settings of either threshold or ratio or both, will not either iron out all the dynamics, or render poor technique unnoticeable.

Set up properly a compressor is pretty near transparent. By which it is meant that you cannot hear it in operation. You can measure it, you can hear it in the context of a mix, but you actually cant hear it soloed unless you really know what you are doing.

Set up properly a compressor can achieve 6dB of compression and you can't feel it when you play, you can't hear it when you listen, yet your quiet signal is 4 times louder than it was. 4 times louder compared to you loudest signal. Or to put it another way, your average RMS level is increased by around 3dB. This is HUGE.

You cant feel it though, when you dig in you still perceive the louder note as louder, as a result of the change in the transient, the amount of treble and the decay of thee note. Its all still is there to hear, the compressor will not magic that away. If it is set up right.

Any crappiness in your technique will be made far more obvious. Any dodginess in your groove, any excessive fret noise, any bum notes will be made as loud as can be, and will be heard. By everyone in the audience.

DO NOT BUY A COMPRESSOR IF YOUR TECHNIQUE IS NOT SORTED ALREADY!!!!

Next point, a compressor without a limiter as well is nigh on useless in a live context. You need to set up a compressor to allow the leading edge of the transient to pass, so the attack must be fairly long (say 100ms), otherwise you will rapidly lose those all important clues to the nature of the attack that psycho-acoustically fool you into hearing the dynamics perfectly. This long attack allows the transient to be uncompressed, but the makeup gain you set to raise you overall level also takes up the level of the peak. Without a separate limiter after the compressor you cant stop the most over exuberant peaks from clipping your rig. So you cant get the most out of your compressor.

A limiter is different from a compressor, not in what it does, but in the way it is designed to do it. Both devices prevent signal over a set level (threshold) from increasing in volume by their natural amount. A compressor may sniff signal over several tens of milliseconds to determine if the level has crossed the threshold, a limiter may do this over several nanoseconds. So the limiter is all about the peaks, a compressor is more concerned with the averages. A limiter attack setting may be measured up to a millisecond or 10, a compressor attack is typical from 10 ms up to as much as 500ms. Again limiters catch peaks. A limiter will have a ratio near infinity to 1, certainly no less than 10 to 1, a compressor will have a ratio settable from 1:1 to 20:1 typically, some go higher. Compressor are far more gentle devices. A limiter has a threshold set less than a dB from maximum a compressor can be set with a threshold as low as 40dB from maximum and still be useful.

I typically set up my compressor with an attack time of around 80 to 120 ms, a ratio of as little as 1.4:1 and a low low threshold. The release is usually around 100ms to 200ms, sometimes less. I aim to get around 6dB of gain reduction, I use the makeup gain to add this in to my level. I turn the compressor off and set the limiter so it just lights up when the loudest peaks come in, then turn the compressor back on. I then have transparent compression that adds some punch and keeps disparate techniques at a similar output volume from the speaker. Yet I still have total dynamic control. The issue I have to deal with with this set up is that if I make a mistake everyone can hear it.

[xgsjx]

Sorry DC2009, I'd also have to disagree. If you're having trouble with "Digging in" then you need to turn your amp up & play with a lighter touch. How hard you're playing with the right hand is just as important as what frets you're holding with the left IMO.
I'm not dissing compressors as some folk like what they do to your sound (I do too sometimes), but I wouldn't use one to try & rectify poor technique.

[51m0n]

[quote name='jonunders' post='1259903' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:48 PM']Hi,

I ues a G&L 2500 through a Markbass lm111 and a bareface compact. I am approaching my first gig and it has been suggested trying a compressor in the system to soffen out the peaks and troughs which appear in my playing, i may get a bit excited. Is this a good or bad thing or will my money be waisted. Having looked on line, which ones, sub £100 are any good and which ones should be avoided.

Thanks

Jonathan[/quote]

Personally I'd say save up something closer the £250 mark as an absolute minimum for a serious compressor.

Or get something cheap with all the controls (threshold, ratio, attack, release, make-up gain, knee) and good metering of input, output and gain reduction so you can learn how this effect works, and how to set it up before you go anywhere near a gig with one. If you don't you will only make matters worse.

Until then leave the compression to the sound engineers, and work on your techinque.

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1260558' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:04 AM']Can I point something out to all those here who have some belief that a compressor will remove all dynamics and render your playing lifeless, and equally to all those here who believe it will eradicate any kind of bad technique.

You are all wrong.

Really really utterly misguided and proof beyond any doubt that you don't really know how a compressor works compared to a limiter say, how it can and should be used in a live context and have not ever used a serious compressor to achieve any specific goal. In which case, don't buy a compressor a few days before a gig, and expect it to work miracles.

A compressor, unless set up to completely extreme settings of either threshold or ratio or both, will not either iron out all the dynamics, or render poor technique unnoticeable.

Set up properly a compressor is pretty near transparent. By which it is meant that you cannot hear it in operation. You can measure it, you can hear it in the context of a mix, but you actually cant hear it soloed unless you really know what you are doing.

Set up properly a compressor can achieve 6dB of compression and you can't feel it when you play, you can't hear it when you listen, yet your quiet signal is 4 times louder than it was. 4 times louder compared to you loudest signal. Or to put it another way, your average RMS level is increased by around 3dB. This is HUGE.

You cant feel it though, when you dig in you still perceive the louder note as louder, as a result of the change in the transient, the amount of treble and the decay of thee note. Its all still is there to hear, the compressor will not magic that away. If it is set up right.

Any crappiness in your technique will be made far more obvious. Any dodginess in your groove, any excessive fret noise, any bum notes will be made as loud as can be, and will be heard. By everyone in the audience.

DO NOT BUY A COMPRESSOR IF YOUR TECHNIQUE IS NOT SORTED ALREADY!!!!

Next point, a compressor without a limiter as well is nigh on useless in a live context. You need to set up a compressor to allow the leading edge of the transient to pass, so the attack must be fairly long (say 100ms), otherwise you will rapidly lose those all important clues to the nature of the attack that psycho-acoustically fool you into hearing the dynamics perfectly. This long attack allows the transient to be uncompressed, but the makeup gain you set to raise you overall level also takes up the level of the peak. Without a separate limiter after the compressor you cant stop the most over exuberant peaks from clipping your rig. So you cant get the most out of your compressor.

A limiter is different from a compressor, not in what it does, but in the way it is designed to do it. Both devices prevent signal over a set level (threshold) from increasing in volume by their natural amount. A compressor may sniff signal over several tens of milliseconds to determine if the level has crossed the threshold, a limiter may do this over several nanoseconds. So the limiter is all about the peaks, a compressor is more concerned with the averages. A limiter attack setting may be measured up to a millisecond or 10, a compressor attack is typical from 10 ms up to as much as 500ms. Again limiters catch peaks. A limiter will have a ratio near infinity to 1, certainly no less than 10 to 1, a compressor will have a ratio settable from 1:1 to 20:1 typically, some go higher. Compressor are far more gentle devices. A limiter has a threshold set less than a dB from maximum a compressor can be set with a threshold as low as 40dB from maximum and still be useful.

I typically set up my compressor with an attack time of around 80 to 120 ms, a ratio of as little as 1.4:1 and a low low threshold. The release is usually around 100ms to 200ms, sometimes less. I aim to get around 6dB of gain reduction, I use the makeup gain to add this in to my level. I turn the compressor off and set the limiter so it just lights up when the loudest peaks come in, then turn the compressor back on. I then have transparent compression that adds some punch and keeps disparate techniques at a similar output volume from the speaker. Yet I still have total dynamic control. The issue I have to deal with with this set up is that if I make a mistake everyone can hear it.[/quote]

Can we sticky your posts somewhere? I really do think stuff like this will help people understand more about how compression and limiting works outside the sea of misinformation that gets bandied around on the internet!

[51m0n]

[quote name='risingson' post='1260569' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:21 AM']Can we sticky your posts somewhere? I really do think stuff like this will help people understand more about how compression and limiting works outside the sea of misinformation that gets bandied around on the internet![/quote]

Where did the embarrassed smiley go!

Yeah it would be a good idea to get the compressor thing stickied, would save on typing and make looking up the relevant posts a whole lot easier.

Just glad to be able to help

[dc2009]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1260559' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:07 AM']Sorry DC2009, I'd also have to disagree. If you're having trouble with "Digging in" then you need to turn your amp up & play with a lighter touch. How hard you're playing with the right hand is just as important as what frets you're holding with the left IMO.
I'm not dissing compressors as some folk like what they do to your sound (I do too sometimes), but I wouldn't use one to try & rectify poor technique.[/quote]

Yeah, re-read my post and it really awfully explained what I was trying to say. IMO rock music isn't about a light touch when you want to dig in for a really solid bassline, it's why I tend to move from the bridge up towards the neck for digging in purposes. I have the problem at practice lately, the amp is poor (not mine) and I can't push it to the volume I want to play lightly, so everything is having to be played that much harder, and ruining my fingers after a half day practice.

Bit hazy on some of what's been said, but if playing heavily is what's being classed as poor technique then I'll be the first to say my technique is awful. The main reason I dig in a lot compared to a lot of players is IMO it sounds infinitely better. I ofc make mistakes like anyone else, but it seems like mistakes and poor technique have been muddled up somewhere here (if they haven't it's just in my head) and I don't think they're necessarily one and the same.

Out of interest, how are limiters best used? I know that the only time one has ever affected me was in the studio, where the one small part of slap bass I had, has disappeared off the mix completely (I didn't rate the engineer, but perhaps it was my fault).

[Wil]

I bought a cheap but full featured DBX rack comp after reading some of 51m0ns excellent posts on the subject and I'd say I'm now fairly confident setting it up how I like it (4:1 ratio, 8-10db reduction with the same in makeup gain, fairly fast attack, medium release - a bit squishy, but not too squishy ) and having played with all the features I think I've got a better understanding of how to achieve the sounds I want far more easily in future. As long as you have the controls available there's plenty of scope for allowing your dynamics through, and it really does add some punch.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Wil

[bassbluestew]

[quote]Bit hazy on some of what's been said, but if playing heavily is what's being classed as poor technique then I'll be the first to say my technique is awful. The main reason I dig in a lot compared to a lot of players is IMO it sounds infinitely better.[/quote]

Now slightly OT but please bear with me.

I was recently down visiting Phil Nixon at the wonderful Bassgear.co.uk and having a go on a luvverly Avella Coppolo ( hope I've got the spelling correct - too many sets of double letters!!! ) and this very topic came up. He reckoned the AC's really sang later in the set as he was digging in a bit more. I normally play with a light touch ( arthritis makes anything else a very real pain ) but on Sat's gig really went for it and crikey but it sounded very different. So what am laboriously trying to say is that digging in ain't necessarily a bad thing at all. It can actually bring out the signature tones of some basses as I have now heard for myself.

Perversely because I'm such a big softy I'm looking at compressors too so am loving all this info.

SIMON - how do you rate the built in compressors on the TC amps? I'm not sure they have limiters built in too. Your post made very good sense regarding only using compressors and limiters together, first time I have heard that. Must do more research.

S for Stewart - not Softie