How clean are you?

[nottswarwick]

Hi all

Thought I would make some observations in this forum...

Basically, I have been revisiting my technique a bit over the last couple of weeks. I have been examining how cleanly I play, in terms of damping, even-ness of tone and volume, clarity etc, and have been a bit disappointed with myself.

I have been using headphones, which obviously makes everything really noticeable, but have found that I get quite a bit of noise from my right hand thumb jumping from string to string (or indeed moving as in the "floating thumb technique" discussed elsewhere). And "live" in particular, bearing in mind my backing vocals and a bit of stage movement, I am curious how clean and controlled folk are or think they need to be?

However, basses are quite physical to play (ie they are big) with big low sounds, so I am wondering how clean/accurate/precise everyone else is? I would consider myself a pretty competent player, able to cover most styles in semi pro, well paid function band settings, having played bass, guitar and drums for 20 years or so. I am a very clean guitar player, so maybe I am just being a bit over critical - at the end of the day headphones show it up, none of this comes over in the band mix, so is by no means a major concern.

Just wondering, in the spirit of self improvement etc. I play 5 stings, whihc are a bit more of a handful, although I am comfortable wiht them.

Anyone got any thoughts?


Chris

[jakenewmanbass]

Hi Chris, I think it depends on what you are trying acheive and given that most of us hear our favourite players from a studio (microscopic analysis and usually careful) environment we can be hard on ourselves to try to live up to that standard, however there are some notable examples of guys who are monstrously accurate live or studio, in my view the heads and shoulders winner in this category in recent years is Jimmy Johnson but there are many studio guys, Anthony Jackson, Will Lee, Neil Stubenhaus, Marcus Miller the list goes on, all great playing that we would all like to acheive! but then consider some of the great funk players.... Jamerson was not clean but very jazzy and groovy (to say the least) Bootsy Collins Jerry Jemmott, Larry Graham all very thumpy and physical players.
Personally I have been on a upward curve of accuracy in recent times I bought an Alembic five string early last year and being an instrument of extraordinary finesse it requires the same from the operator. I place enormous importance on the ability to play minims, my goal being neutron density when it comes to the arrival of the one. From this I have a starting point of control but then am prepared to let rip if the occasion warrants, at that point some extraneous noise is in my view acceptable and you will hear it coming from the worlds best at times. A good example of this is Freddy Washington on Morph the Cat (Donald Fagens latest solo album) where there are the 'sounds' that playing the bass produces but they in no way detract from the stellar performances he puts in on every track.
In summary I think its horses for courses and in a band situation you will mostly be the guy who notices your own degree of accuracy so if you have high standards you will produce music of that calibre.
ps
thanks for an interesting postulation

pps
I also play a 70s Jazz which is much more forgiving in the clean department

Edited January 11, 2008 by jakesbass

[grosa]

I think really the best way is to listen to yourself and pick the little things out and work on them,as your i suppose your own worst enemy as a critic but
from a production point of view thats what id expect.
do you think your sloppy?everybody i nkow on all instruments think a lot less of their capabilities which obviously isn't a bad thing cos it's only gonna improve your playing i suppose but maybe there is a point where you could over anylise it too much,not that im suggesting you are.
i try to record an hours jam now and again with out turnatablist and rhodes player and listen to it back really carefully because i want to know where i should be doing things better.
if that helped, which i doubt..... thats just my odd way of doing things.

[wotnwhy]

for solo stuff, i'm very messy, i know i certainly have the skills to play pieces cleanly. but the bottom line is i don't practice the stuff enough (one of the things i'll be working on this year), there's a few pieces that i can't play even half as good as i could a few years ago, even though my overall playing has improved.

for band stuff, in a rehersal or recording setting i think i'm very clean, i've been focusing on my technique here for the last couple of years, and have achieved a level that i'm very happy with. very soft picking, excelent damping, good punctuation and pretty much flawless left hand technique for the pieces we play in the band (this is no doubt helped by my simpling down of basslines i write). but take it into a live setting and it usually goes out the window as i'm often (but not always) very active when i play. so the soft right hand goes out the window as does the accuracy of the left. it's not bad by any means, just not on the same level as in the rehearsal room. but i'm not bothered as the difference is small enough as makes no difference to anyone in the audience (who's not a bassist ).

[Bilbo]

I suck!

Seriously tho' (you weren't??), my technique is variable depending on how often I gig and on the nature of those gigs. I rarely practice bass anymore - not because I don't love it but because, where I am in my playing career, I rarely get to play anything that stretches the technique/capabilities I do have. I periodically hear something that gets my juices flowing and I pick up the bass and woodshed but, very quickly, I find myself on the same treadmill on function gigs, Latin or Funk gigs etc and, in a nutshell, NOT using the chops I am working on. So I look to other areas of music for inspiration. I was playing Donna Lee twenty years ago but have rarely done a gig where I would need to play at that level for more than a minute. So where is the motivation to continually practice at that level?

I am confident enough in my capabilities to feel that I could nail most gigs with a little work anf I have had no complaints but I find that I work on MUSIC now more than I do on BASS (i.e. composing, harmony, orchestration etc). I am sure my technique suffers as a consequence. If Metheny calls, I'll practise my a*** off but, until then, I can cope with what I have.

[urb]

As a bass pal of mine once wisely said (hey Ari) - "you have to be up there to play here..." - which is to say if you practice stuff that challenges you then go and play slightly less challenging stuff then you should be much more solid, confident and on top of the music - the goal being to stop thinking about playing the bass and just play the music...and generally speaking if playing live or recording I'm very clean - and doing a lot of home recording of late has really helped me hear all the nasty bits up close and personal...and I regularly suck as well!

On a few occasions I've played Donna Lee live - and more recently Giant Steps - on a gig these are crazy hard jazz tunes to try and pull off live but even if these are seat-of-your-pants scary and challenging tunes to try and play at temp and in front of a crowd - and getting through it - it's one of the only ways you will beak through that barrier of pulling stuff off in the practice room but not on the bandstand.

I completely admit that getting my technique together has at times taken over from studying more musical elements - but I think it's a massive advantage to have technique and then be able to forget about what your fingers are doing ad just let your ears lead you in how best to react to the music you are playing. But that said using excessive technique for the sake of it generally sucks and serves no useful purpose - I honestly try my best to play what's required and if it feels right to throw in the odd technical thing then fine - if not - I leave it out.

Cheers

Mike

[Thunderthumbs]

I scared the sh*t out of myself the other day.

I put my headphones on and jammed along to some Stevie Wonder, and recorded the bass. Then I listen back to it.

I play in a covers band, regular gigs, and I think I'm pretty tight with the drummer. So I was shocked when I listened back to the bass I'd recorded. My timing was all over the place. Again, it is that thing over being overly critical of myself (or then again, not), as it wouldn't sound like that in a live situation.

But it's highlighted just one area of my playing that I really need to start tightening up again.

[stingrayfan]

I'm all over the shop with my left hand but I'm probably too far demented to fix it

Edited January 12, 2008 by stingrayfan

[jakenewmanbass]

for those of you who are speaking of problems with time get your hands (if you can) on an article called the metronome as guru. It (imo) solves all time issues and turns you into smug time git
Jake

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='119310' date='Jan 12 2008, 09:48 PM']for those of you who are speaking of problems with time get your hands (if you can) on an article called the metronome as guru. It (imo) solves all time issues and turns you into smug time git
Jake[/quote]
Have you got a copy? Where did you get it from? Could you scan it?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='119371' date='Jan 13 2008, 01:14 AM']Have you got a copy? Where did you get it from? Could you scan it?[/quote]
I have got a copy, I'll have a look for it (been a while) and look into a way of sharing it.
It was originally on a bass website (can't remember the name) that had a series of articles called in the trenches.... can anyone shed any light.... ring any bells?
would be good to source the articles again they were all really good
Jake

PS If I can't find it I will try and re write it so it might take a few days. and Mods might want to look into any potential copyright issues

Edited January 13, 2008 by jakesbass

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='119192' date='Jan 12 2008, 05:11 PM']I scared the sh*t out of myself the other day.

I put my headphones on and jammed along to some Stevie Wonder, and recorded the bass. Then I listen back to it.

I play in a covers band, regular gigs, and I think I'm pretty tight with the drummer. So I was shocked when I listened back to the bass I'd recorded. My timing was all over the place. Again, it is that thing over being overly critical of myself (or then again, not), as it wouldn't sound like that in a live situation.

But it's highlighted just one area of my playing that I really need to start tightening up again.[/quote]

I encourage all students to make recording and listening to themselves part of a regular practice regimen
as for it not sounding like that live, record it to be sure you're not kidding yourself

Edited January 13, 2008 by jakesbass

[Sibob]

I've really been concentrating on my timing and 'cleanliness' with regards to recordings. I realised a couple of years ago that i have a natural tendency to rush things, i get excited lol. So now literally with everything that i do i lay back a lot more, in other ways i almost get lazy with where i hit the note. At first it felt very unnatural, but i listened back to the session where i had the epiphany and it was spot on. Now my studio recordings are a joy, because now i associate any session/studio recording with relaxing, all very Pavlovian i guess .

On the live side of things, with most people i suspect, it kinda goes out the window a little bit. If it's a chilled gig, it's much the same as a recording, but i haven't done a chilled gig in a long time . I like to bounce around, have fun and give a performance, that to me is more important live then hitting every single note 100%. Of course, the more one does something, the better one becomes at giving said performance and hitting all the notes super clean, although who wants to hear a studio like bass line at a live gig, you want some spark and fire there!

99% of audiences (IMO) will appreciate an exciting performance moreso then if every player stood still and nailed the recording, how boring would that be!

Si

[AM1]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='119310' date='Jan 12 2008, 09:48 PM']for those of you who are speaking of problems with time get your hands (if you can) on an article called the metronome as guru. It (imo) solves all time issues and turns you into smug time git
Jake[/quote]

Hiya

Apologies for raking up old threads!

Could you please point me towards the source of this article if possible?

Many thanks

AM

[iamthewalrus]

[quote name='AM1' post='353836' date='Dec 13 2008, 07:50 PM']Hiya

Apologies for raking up old threads!

Could you please point me towards the source of this article if possible?

Many thanks

AM[/quote]

Hi guys,
This article originally appeared in a copy of "Bass Player" in the early 90's & the bulk of it can be found in Ed Friedland's book "The Working Bassists Toolkit" (Backbeat Books) where Ed focuses on different ways of using the major scale & your mentronome in various ways (it's the first chapter in the book).

The book itself is a great book as it also takes in ear training, doubling on both acoustic & electric, reading chord charts, & lots of really good advice on function gigs, jazz gigs & loads of other stuff.

Cheers,
iamthewalrus.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='118517' date='Jan 11 2008, 01:45 PM']I suck!

Seriously tho' (you weren't??), my technique is variable depending on how often I gig and on the nature of those gigs. I rarely practice bass anymore - not because I don't love it but because, where I am in my playing career, I rarely get to play anything that stretches the technique/capabilities I do have. I periodically hear something that gets my juices flowing and I pick up the bass and woodshed but, very quickly, I find myself on the same treadmill on function gigs, Latin or Funk gigs etc and, in a nutshell, NOT using the chops I am working on. So I look to other areas of music for inspiration. I was playing Donna Lee twenty years ago but have rarely done a gig where I would need to play at that level for more than a minute. So where is the motivation to continually practice at that level?

I am confident enough in my capabilities to feel that I could nail most gigs with a little work anf I have had no complaints but I find that I work on MUSIC now more than I do on BASS (i.e. composing, harmony, orchestration etc). I am sure my technique suffers as a consequence. If Metheny calls, I'll practise my a*** off but, until then, I can cope with what I have.[/quote]
You've summed up my situation completely. I don't need to add anything else and I wish I had music shop chops and a choice little solo piece but I can't be bothered going to the trouble of learning something like that if I'm only ever going to playing it to impress other bass players. If I played guitar better and could transfer guitar stuff over onto bass (like Paul McCartney's Blackbird) it might be a little different I guess. But I'm not that skilled. I just do groove.

[AM1]

[quote name='iamthewalrus' post='353871' date='Dec 13 2008, 08:49 PM']Hi guys,
This article originally appeared in a copy of "Bass Player" in the early 90's & the bulk of it can be found in Ed Friedland's book "The Working Bassists Toolkit" (Backbeat Books) where Ed focuses on different ways of using the major scale & your mentronome in various ways (it's the first chapter in the book).

The book itself is a great book as it also takes in ear training, doubling on both acoustic & electric, reading chord charts, & lots of really good advice on function gigs, jazz gigs & loads of other stuff.

Cheers,
iamthewalrus.[/quote]

Excellent thanks.

[The Funk]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='119397' date='Jan 13 2008, 08:59 AM']as for it not sounding like that live, record it to be sure you're not kidding yourself[/quote]

I'm a weird one: tight in the studio (where everything's nice and clear through the headphones) but meandering onstage - until I hear it back recorded and can't see what I was worrying about.

It doesn't matter how good your time is - it can always be better. And it gets worse when you haven't been actively working on it for a while.

[chris_b]

I was shocked when I got the Thunderfunk and the Bergantino cabs. My complacency quickly evaporated and I was left listening to all sorts of noises, uneven notes and fumbles which years of "muddy old gear" had masked. I reckon it put me back 20 years. It's not good to have to concentrate so much on the basics after so long!!!

[mcgraham]

This is one of the reasons when I practice (daily) through a headphone practice amp and a metronome. I've done this exclusively for about 3-4 years now and swear by it. I have just the bridge pickup on, the bass frequencies turned down a bit and treble turned up a bit. It means that I can hear every clank and horrible noise I make, and then I can practice such that I get rid of them.

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='chris_b' post='355886' date='Dec 16 2008, 01:01 PM']It's not good to have to concentrate so much on the basics after so long!!![/quote]

I totally disagree with this thought, not criticising you Chris, as I said earlier it's horses for courses, but I want to improve the simple stuff more and more...

[mcgraham]

[quote]I want to improve the simple stuff more and more...[/quote]

It sounded like Chris was referring to having to actually get the basic stuff right, rather than just improving what was already there. Of course, I could be wrong.

I remember reading an interview with/article by Michael Manring who was explaining some of his practice exercises. One of them was for timing. He'd record a loop with a single staccato note and treat that as a repeating 'one'. He'd then try to hit that one everytime it came around in order to get right on top of it. He also tried to replicate the tone of that note to stay consistent. His timing and touch improved to the point where (he said) that on certain occasions he caused the original looped note to 'disappear' i.e. due to superposition of the played and looped notes being so close in all respects. Pretty clever and a good practice tool!

I tend to just practice with a metronome very very heavily.

Mark

[alexclaber]

Usually about as clean as I want to be, though that varies a lot!

I've done quite a lot of metronome practice in the past and also working with programmed beats - it's a good challenge to really groove with a computerised beat. Nowadays I tend to practice unplugged and unaccompanied (but my bass is quite loud acoustically) and enjoy getting maximum groove happening without anything to help or disguise my playing. A big benefit of unplugged practice is learning how to use your hands to get your sound and volume, both things that too many bassists equate with knob positions.

Alex

[thepurpleblob]

My timing is pretty good - I think. My fingering accuracy is terrible though. I should really put the time into fixing it. I'm not the most bendy person in the world and this extends to my fretting fingers. I'm just not that good hitting the right spot with the finger I want to and missing the strings with the fingers I don't. It's a bit frustrating to be honest.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Nowadays I tend to practice unplugged and unaccompanied (but my bass is quite loud acoustically)[/quote]
-1.

I don't agree with doing this at all. Whilst our instruments may have oscillating strings and have [i]some[/i] limited acoustic volume, they are [i]electric[/i] instruments. Setting aside the point that this may arguably be a more 'honest' way of playing (I take issue with that), I believe that doing this introduces what I would consider to be bad technique and playing habits, e.g. playing harder than you need to in general to achieve a higher acoustic volume, not playing high notes and low notes evenly as you are trying to obtain similar perceived acoustic volume. Essentially, I consider that by doing this one would be learning to adjust one's playing and sound to be something that is NEVER the sound that would be produced by your amp, at least by a purely electric instrument with magnetic pickups. Even if they are Q-tuners.

I apologise if I sound slightly agitated on this point; it gets my heckles up when I see/hear/hear of people doing this (particularly electric guitarists).

Mark