Golchen Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 BRAIN OVERLOAD. Too much knowledge for one sitting. Someone press my reset button Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) Hi Mark, I'm all for skeptical examination of assertions and agree that un-tested guff is spouted all the time, but it strikes me that the possibilities of property you allude to in you description of what affects tone serve the 'wood has an effect' argument quite well even if it is a questioning (of which I approve) service. There are times were received wisdom should be given a nod and I would return to my earlier point, it will take a large amount of evidence to convince me that when I had my DB neck refinished in ebony that there was no scientifically discernible, favourable difference to the lighter less hard wood (whatever it was) that was on there before. I heard it with my own ears. My Alembic has an ebony fingerboard on a thru neck, and I can feel the entire body literally bristling with vibrations. While I think it useful to have an open mind when examining the real effects properties have on an instrument I feel it a little under serving of common sense to count as spurious the experiences of mans interaction with organic matter. That said I understand your frustration at the tendency displayed by some to eschew proper examination in favour of voodoo like belief in mis-information. Btw, fascinating stuff here guys (you can tell I am entirely lay in this regard) And a merry Christmas to you all. Jake Edited December 24, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote]A bass body has numerous resonant frequencies so this absorbtion occurs all over the frequency spectrum. However, this energy does also return to the string, further exciting it and giving sustain. The energy returned to the string depends upon the Q (or inverse of self-damping) of the resonator at the relevant frequency.[/quote] Indeed. Damping of the string's motion is inherently linked to the witness point absorbing energy from the strings vibration. And I have already said the witness points return energy to the string by virtue of their bounding of the string. I do not see what point in my reasoning you are disagreeing with here. I do not think we are disagreeing on the fundamental principles of this, but I do feel we are disagreeing on the subjective effect of these factors. I do not deny that electric instruments sound different, and that this is (in part) due to the woods. I even submit to the fact that two basses with the same configuration (alder body, maple neck, rosewood board, both Fender American series configuration for example) can sound different. However I attribute significantly more of the sound to the construction of a bass and the electronics before the wood. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362564' date='Dec 24 2008, 09:34 AM']I do not deny that electric instruments sound different, and that this is (in part) due to the woods. I even submit to the fact that two basses with the same configuration (alder body, maple neck, rosewood board, both Fender American series configuration for example) can sound different. However I attribute significantly more of the sound to the construction of a bass and the electronics before the wood. Mark[/quote] TBH I had not garnered the above sentiment from your earlier posts so I find myself far more in agreement with you than I previously thought, probably through my dearth of proper knowledge on the subject... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Jake, thanks for your comments. I apologise if I came across as discounting one's experiences absolutely. That was not my intent. Ultimately with music and musical instruments, subjectiveness is all that matters. If it gets the sound you want it gets the sound you want, end of. Whether it's scientifically true/supported, or whether it's psychosomatic has NO bearing on your subjective experience, at least at a given time. Also, I've already said I don't have all the answers, and neither does science for that matter. Even if it did, our ears are always going to have the final say anyway! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362564' date='Dec 24 2008, 09:34 AM']However I attribute significantly more of the sound to the construction of a bass and the electronics before the wood.[/quote] Yes, it's all about the construction of the bass. And what are most basses constructed of? The wood!!! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote]TBH I had not garnered the above sentiment from your earlier posts so I find myself far more in agreement with you than I previously thought, probably through my dearth of proper knowledge on the subject...[/quote] Again, my apologies I was mainly focusing on the physics rather than my own experiences for the purposes of discussion. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) [quote]Yes, it's all about the construction of the bass. And what are most basses constructed of? The wood!!![/quote] *rolls eyes* we're going to be here a while aren't we? I never said it had NO effect. I'm pointing out that I believe the two (imparting of tone vs rigidity of construction) to be inversely proportional to one another, and I rate construction of a lot of basses very highly. As such I don't consider the imparting of tone of wood to be as big a deal as people make it out to be. Mark Edited December 24, 2008 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362574' date='Dec 24 2008, 09:42 AM']Again, my apologies I was mainly focusing on the physics rather than my own experiences for the purposes of discussion. Mark[/quote] No need to apologise mate, I'm just enjoying the information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362579' date='Dec 24 2008, 09:45 AM']I never said it had NO effect. I'm pointing out that I believe the two (imparting of tone vs rigidity of construction) to be inversely proportional to one another, and I rate construction of a lot of basses very highly.[/quote] You keep missing the point that the instrument has two key roles - providing a stiff structure to support the strings AND providing a resonant filtering and feedback system to give the sound character. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I disagree. I'm not missing it, I've discussed it above. I just don't consider it to have the same influence on the tone that you do. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362628' date='Dec 24 2008, 10:37 AM']I disagree. I'm not missing it, I've discussed it above. I just don't consider it to have the same influence on the tone that you do.[/quote] If I close my eyes it doesn't exist? With a well constructed bass the body vibrates a lot - there is a lot of energy moving between the body and the strings. You can't just write off the complex feedback system of the resonant parts of the instrument just because you don't don't think it is important. Yes, it's all important, the player in particular, but the acoustic nature of the instrument is fundamental to its sound. Whatever you do with pickups and electronics you cannot get around the acoustic character of the instrument. Also remember that the note envelope and the change in timbre over time is competely dependant on acoustic characteristics, not what the electronics and pickups are doing. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote]With a well constructed bass the body vibrates a lot - there is a lot of energy moving between the body and the strings. You can't just write off the complex feedback system of the resonant parts of the instrument just because you don't don't think it is important. Yes, it's all important, the player in particular, but the acoustic nature of the instrument is fundamental to its sound. Whatever you do with pickups and electronics you cannot get around the acoustic character of the instrument.[/quote] Alex, I'm not writing off the complex resonances of the system. I [i]have [/i]considered them, but I have reached a different conclusion to you. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='362648' date='Dec 24 2008, 11:10 AM']Alex, I'm not writing off the complex resonances of the system. I [i]have [/i]considered them, but I have reached a different conclusion to you.[/quote] Ah well, we can't all be right. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Perhaps, but we can all be wrong Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballie Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 In terms of eveness, putting a ramp on my bass did wonders for the dynamic side to my playing. I wouldn't say I was the cleanest of players at all, but I'm working at it. I play 6 string with wide spacing, and damping is a nightmare, hence I'm switching to the Gary Willis method. It's like starting over, but hopefully I'll reap the benefits one of these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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