Do the audience really appreciate quality sound?

[Bassmouseman]

I doubt the audience would notice a bad sound (unless its really sh*t) but they do notice when it sounds good!
Maybe this is because if the band feels the sound is good they tend to play better! IMO

[charic]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='116916' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:17 PM']Man, that's pretty depressing. 'I could be playing anything. Noone notices'. Kinda makes you lose the drive to nail those riffs.

Is there an idiots guide to quickly eq-ing a toilet-venue band for easy separation/reasonable mix? Could someone with good knowledge start and sticky a topic like that?

eg:

Four pice vox/guit/bass/drums-
Boost bass at XXXhz, cut at XXXhz
Boost guit at YYYhz cut at NNNhz, make him play only the top four strings
Boost Vox at PPPhz, cut at DDDhz, limit at this threshold, try this compression ratio..?
Keys: break his left hand, cut at SSShz


That would be amazing! Those of us starting out in crap places without this wealth of experience would really appreciate something like this![/quote]

Room dimension make a huge difference and different people responses will always be different but ill try this out of my own choices. Please dont flame me, discussion of it is fine

Boost bass at = difficult due to preference in sound.. personally i love the mids. Cut around 200-400Hz to relieve the mix of muddyness
Boost guitar at = around 1khzz-3khz (if you have 2 boost the other around 700-900hz) sperate the mix
Boost vox= slightly somewhere around 500 hz to add bottom (experiment with diff singers) then 1-3khz for definition. Cut the highs. Try a 4:1 compression ratio with a soft knee
Keys: Flat EQ or possibly cut bass as theyre designed to sound that way already

Oh and if the kickdrums mic'd make sure to remove 200-400hz imo

Wot ne of u guys think?

[bremen]

[quote name='charic' post='117006' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:15 PM']Oh and if the kickdrums mic'd make sure to remove 200-400hz imo

Wot ne of u guys think?[/quote]

If the kickdrum is mic'd, gate it. And don't just bung it in the middle of the drum, position it on a stand just outside the drum. Otherwise it'll all be horrible booming indistinct noise mixed up with lots of bass guitar.

[gilmour]

[quote name='Geddys nose' post='116816' date='Jan 9 2008, 09:59 AM']A crap band with good gear will always sound crap and a good band with crap gear will always sound good- My Dad always told me that [/quote]
Your dads right

Does it depend on the audience? I think that not all audiences are the same, if i'm gigging in a jazz club or even a local arts centre I know I'm under a lot more scrutiny than if I'm playing in the backroom of the Dog and Duck, or some metal club with black walls and sticky floors. One audience is there for the music, the other to have a drink, and the music is (hopefully) a bonus.

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='charic' post='117006' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:15 PM']Room dimension make a huge difference and different people responses will always be different but ill try this out of my own choices. Please dont flame me, discussion of it is fine

Boost bass at = difficult due to preference in sound.. personally i love the mids. Cut around 200-400Hz to relieve the mix of muddyness
Boost guitar at = around 1khzz-3khz (if you have 2 boost the other around 700-900hz) sperate the mix
Boost vox= slightly somewhere around 500 hz to add bottom (experiment with diff singers) then 1-3khz for definition. Cut the highs. Try a 4:1 compression ratio with a soft knee
Keys: Flat EQ or possibly cut bass as theyre designed to sound that way already

Oh and if the kickdrums mic'd make sure to remove 200-400hz imo

Wot ne of u guys think?[/quote]

Brilliant - thanks for the tips. Just looking for some initial anchor points from which to investigate!

Thanks too, Bremen.

Anyone got any other tips / different opinions?

[LukeFRC]

sound guys make more difference to sound than GASing good gear.
some bands just suck though whatever you do.

[Johngh]

In my experience a lot more audiences are tuned in to what is a good sound and what is not.
Also "Sound Engineers" need to be good at mixing a band dependant on the type of songs they play. Sounds obvious you might think ! but no ! when I played in a Beautiful South Trinute band, we played on a gig where the resident sound engineer at the club gave our drummer a classic rock (AC-DC) style drum sound, it was unreal !

I've also heard excellent bands play through sh*te PA that must be at least 25 years old and sound crap.

[tauzero]

[quote name='finnbass' post='116918' date='Jan 9 2008, 12:17 PM']It's all subjective obviously, but the last two adjectives I would apply to Chris Squire's bass playing are, 'muffled' and/or 'distorted'.[/quote]
You should have a listen to "Yessongs" then. Not muffled, I'll grant you...

[TimmyC]

Depends who's in the audience

[wotnwhy]

i think an audience really can appreciate a quality sound. one of the compliments we often get (when we get it right!) is how they really like the fact that our sound is clean and clear, and they really seem to like it!

though wether or not this is down to good equipment or just being able to use what you've got is the ultimate debate

[charic]

Id also like to point out one problem i have with rubbish equipment in the past other than reliability:

When engineering a band (who supply the PA) the speakers were shocking, they didnt cut through the mix at all. Also they were rubbishly constructed meaning sound waves escaped out the back way to easy causing copious amounts of feedback problems.

The reason some equipment costs more is its BETTER. What better is depends what you buy

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='charic' post='117006' date='Jan 9 2008, 02:15 PM']Room dimension make a huge difference and different people responses will always be different but ill try this out of my own choices. Please dont flame me, discussion of it is fine

Boost bass at = difficult due to preference in sound.. personally i love the mids. Cut around 200-400Hz to relieve the mix of muddyness
Boost guitar at = around 1khzz-3khz (if you have 2 boost the other around 700-900hz) sperate the mix
Boost vox= slightly somewhere around 500 hz to add bottom (experiment with diff singers) then 1-3khz for definition. Cut the highs. Try a 4:1 compression ratio with a soft knee
Keys: Flat EQ or possibly cut bass as theyre designed to sound that way already

Oh and if the kickdrums mic'd make sure to remove 200-400hz imo

Wot ne of u guys think?[/quote]

re the guitars, what if you mix it so one guitar is in the left and the other is in the right speaker? is it still best to boost different frequencies?

[LukeFRC]

panning guitars to different channels would be daft. It would only work for folk in the middle of the room everyone else would just here one guitar.

I think the Eq ideas ppl are giving are usefull ideas of how to start thinking about fitting instruments around each other but don't go writing it down and demanding that what you want from the sound man at your next gig.

Everything is totally dependent on the shape, size and construction of the room and the design and positioning of the PA and if the PA has a lovely multiband parametric EQ thingy (looks like two very big graphic Eqs ususally in one one unit box), this goes into the way you set up each instrument too. The bass guitar 'boomy-ness' is more likely to respond to the length of the room than any set frequency.
Different guitars need different approachs depending on the type of guitar/amp and the role it plays in the music. For isntance a Tele through a De'ville you will approach completely differently to a Les Paul through a AC50.
Vox is totally dependent on the singer and the sound characteristics of the mic.
Interesting things to note are how to make something sound 'louder' to the audience you can often turn the treble up to make it more defined.

Its best to just use your ears, learn what the Eq controls do and just fiddle till it sounds good.
I did and trained my ears enough that I could pick up a bass and teach myself to play, and now look at me- on some bass players internet forum!

[stingrayfan]

I reckon the main thing punters notice with cover bands are the vocals - are they clear and can they hear them above the band? Do they worry about whether the bass is compressed or you're playing an American over a Mexican? Nah. But as musicians using the tools, you do want something that sounds good and is reliable. Maybe there's a point where spending money and getting results tails off though. I'm gigging £350 basses and getting better results that the £1200 I've got. I'd love a Trace Elliot rig but in reality, the Warwick stuff I've got does the job.

[Bilbo]

I agree that getting a good sound live is as much an art as ait is a craft. There are so many variables, not the least of which is the bodies of the people who are listening to the band (the difference between the sound in an empty room and a full one is massive). But I do think that a lot of bands struggle because everyone in the band (usually as a conseqence of an insentive and unmusical drummer but not always) is too loud. That's why a bass/guitar duet w/o drums would sound nice, because the clarity achieved by the intimacy of the setting would be refreshing for the audience.

Another thing to consider (particularly in jazz) is the relationship between a bass sound and a ride cymbal (I would KILL to play with Peter Erskine). Also the overall SOUND (not volume) of the drumkit will make a huge difference to the overall sonic effect of an ensemble.

[charic]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='117673' date='Jan 10 2008, 10:17 AM']I agree that getting a good sound live is as much an art as ait is a craft. There are so many variables, not the least of which is the bodies of the people who are listening to the band (the difference between the sound in an empty room and a full one is massive). But I do think that a lot of bands struggle because everyone in the band (usually as a conseqence of an insentive and unmusical drummer but not always) is too loud. That's why a bass/guitar duet w/o drums would sound nice, because the clarity achieved by the intimacy of the setting would be refreshing for the audience.

Another thing to consider (particularly in jazz) is the relationship between a bass sound and a ride cymbal (I would KILL to play with Peter Erskine). Also the overall SOUND (not volume) of the drumkit will make a huge difference to the overall sonic effect of an ensemble.[/quote]


Id like to point out that with a tape measure a lot of the problems are easily solved as you can roughly guess which frequencies are going to be boosted with equations (which i dont have handy and down have down parrot fashion yet) e.g. each 3m dimension is roughly a boost in the 1khz range is one i tend to remember.

Theres also equations for working out what the difference will be like with people. Strange eh?
This is all stuff i plan to use out in the field once i get going.

Panning simply wont work unless you have a HUGE setup where you have speakers around the room (think almost surround sound).

One other system to try putting into use (for me anyway) is to get an extra speaker or 2 and use ONLY for vocals and also using vocals on the other speakers. This theoretically should add much more clarity.

PS anyone want a sound engineer?

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='117569' date='Jan 10 2008, 12:37 AM']parametric EQ thingy (looks like two very big graphic Eqs ususally in one one unit box)[/quote]

no i think something that looks like 2 very big graphic EQs in one box is 2x32 band stereo graphic EQ.

A parametric EQ is much more compact because it's based on the idea that you choose what frequency you want instead of just having a huge number of sliders for various fixed frequencies. So you don't need to adjust it as much.

[quote name='charic' post='117883' date='Jan 10 2008, 02:54 PM']One other system to try putting into use (for me anyway) is to get an extra speaker or 2 and use ONLY for vocals and also using vocals on the other speakers. This theoretically should add much more clarity.[/quote]

that's one thing that proper annoys me about a lot of gigs is the vocals are loads louder then the instruments and it takes a lot away from the song imo.

Edited January 10, 2008 by EdwardHimself

[wotnwhy]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='117953' date='Jan 10 2008, 04:34 PM']that's one thing that proper annoys me about a lot of gigs is the vocals are loads louder then the instruments and it takes a lot away from the song imo.[/quote]

wow, where are these gigs and can my band play them??

we have the exact opposite problem at gigs.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='wotnwhy' post='118002' date='Jan 10 2008, 05:10 PM']wow, where are these gigs and can my band play them??

we have the exact opposite problem at gigs.[/quote]

that sucks too. They should be about the same imo.

[charic]

The vocals SHOULD be a little louder. The extra speakers are for clarity not volume tho... the volume of the vocals would of been spread across 4 speakers instead of 2 whereas the instruments across 2. More speakers doesnt always mean louder

[StiffyP]

i think better gear is essential because like someone said earlier, if you sound good, its one less thing to worry about, and most musicians are audiophiles. so because of that, we can concentrate fully on the music.

if i sound bad, then thats all i can think about, and i end up playing worse.

plus with good gear and a good sound, the musicians that are watching you (the people that really matter) appreciate it. which is definetly the golden bonus.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='StiffyP' post='118080' date='Jan 10 2008, 07:23 PM']i think better gear is essential because like someone said earlier, if you sound good, ......[/quote]

What is "better gear"? More expensive gear?

I sound good through what some people would describe as "crap gear"!

[StiffyP]

well then youre fine

[wotnwhy]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='118355' date='Jan 11 2008, 09:41 AM']What is "better gear"?[/quote]

i'd hazzard a guess that he means, better than gear that doesn't sound as good? it doesn't have to be more expensive to sound better. but when companies know there stuff generally sounds better than the competition they tend to charge more. doesn't make it a rule though

[quote name='cheddatom' post='118355' date='Jan 11 2008, 09:41 AM']I sound good through what some people would describe as "crap gear"![/quote]

so do i. but i sound even [i]better[/i] through better equipment

[jakenewmanbass]

where bass is concerned in quality or mere presence its only absence that is noticed. few punters have the analytical ear that even the most rudimentarily equipped musician has.
Jake