thebassist Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Great experience. Next we need to get Robert Trujillo to let us have a go on Jaco's Bass of Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) Just a quick note on the 'is it from '59?' debate. Experts have said for many years that this is not from '59. Fender have themselves said that the first Jazz prototype/sample/whatever you want to call it, was not made until at least June 1960, with the final release being made available in shops in August/September 1960 (The vast majority of stack knob Jazz bodies are all dated August 1960, becaue they made a lot in one batch. Also, many Fender experts would tell you that the colours used (Fiesta Red and LPB), wouldnt have been available in '59. The more obvious point of note is that the headstock on Herbies bass, shows a decal that was used from very late '61 to '62. It has the patent numbers under the Fender decal, and is missing the small PAT PEND decal. This would suggest the neck is from late '61 earliest. It's a one owner bass, yet the owner has always said it has no changed parts. The owner has never allowed anyone to get the pot codes or check out the bass's neck or body date. A combination of a simple 10 minute inspection of these components would show everything. Also, the pickup cover screws are the smaller ones used from late '61 too. By the way, I am not questioning anyones comment, or ownership history of this bass. My interest is far more in the instrument itself, and my knowledge of vintage Fender basses, than of any interest in that of the owner. I do admire his playing, and his discography though, but my post isnt about that. I am yet to hear of one 'expert', or Fender historian who believes this to be from 1959. Its a quite well documented bass, and his reluctance to 'show' components, yet still call it a '59 continues to annoy.....not me I might add. I'll keep my opinion to myself. The pat numbers say everything. And nobody would have sent a bass back to the factory in the early 60's because the decal wore off would they?? Edited December 9, 2013 by Rick's Fine '52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 IIRC The Fender headtock logo was replaced circa 1982 as it had worn away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1386596518' post='2301903'] IIRC The Fender headtock logo was replaced circa 1982 as it had worn away. [/quote] What, and with it being such an important part of Fenders history, being a prototype/sample of their rarest bass, and played/owned by a famous musician, they decided to put any old decal on it? Sorry, not buying that. Herbie is obviously not worried about the aesthetic look and condition of the bass, because it is very heavily worn, and checked, through playing, so its highly unlikely he would have sent the bass back to have a decal put back on it, i think he's the kinda guy who actually likes the look of the natural wear he's given it over the years. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm sceptical about this one, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) Herbie Flowers in Portillo/Khan/Weather-man confusion!! So the little switch/slider on the scratchplate on the lower horn wasn't originally to control the fuzz-box thing? Edited December 9, 2013 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Plux_the_Duck' timestamp='1281044038' post='916493']Herbie Flowers said to me on tuesday, I'll bring in my '59 jazz and you can have a go, which was really cool for him to say[/quote] What a lovely story! And to think that some of us get so protective about our gear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1386597286' post='2301915'] What, and with it being such an important part of Fenders history, being a prototype/sample of their rarest bass, and played/owned by a famous musician, they decided to put any old decal on it? Sorry, not buying that. [/quote] Rick, FYI - if you click on Simon's link on the first page of this thread, it has more pics and has a go at explaining the history (and kind of still doesn't believe it) - something about George Harrison's tech replacing the decal? I'm not disagreeing with you, not at all, just pointing out that there is more explanation, whether feasible or not. I'd love to know the truth for sure - I'm hooked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1386596075' post='2301897'] Just a quick note on the 'is it from '59?' debate. Experts have said for many years that this is not from '59...the colours used wouldnt have been available in '59....the decal that was used from very late '61 to '62. This would suggest the neck is from late '61 earliest....Also, the pickup cover screws are the smaller ones used from late '61 too. I am yet to hear of one 'expert', or Fender historian who believes this to be from 1959. And nobody would have sent a bass back to the factory in the early 60's because the decal wore off would they?? [/quote] Sir, sir!!! The pedants are picking on Herbie again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1386604920' post='2302049'] Sir, sir!!! The pedants are picking on Herbie again! [/quote] Whose picking on Herbie?, quite the opposite if you read my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1386604650' post='2302042'] Rick, FYI - if you click on Simon's link on the first page of this thread, it has more pics and has a go at explaining the history (and kind of still doesn't believe it) - something about George Harrison's tech replacing the decal? I'm not disagreeing with you, not at all, just pointing out that there is more explanation, whether feasible or not. I'd love to know the truth for sure - I'm hooked! [/quote] Just read it. Thats that sorted then eh, all is good in the world!! Almost as plausible an explanation as that good old loft find........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1386605537' post='2302061'] Whose picking on Herbie?, quite the opposite if you read my post. [/quote] Chill man, it was a bit of fun relating to an earlier post in the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1386606859' post='2302080'] Chill man, it was a bit of fun relating to an earlier post in the thread. [/quote] I'm very chilled, and I know what you were referring to, unfortunately you quoted my post to which your post referred, so I replied. Trust me, I'm not an argumentative person whatsoever, and I do have a sense of humour, but, like most other Fenderites, I don't buy this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1386607588' post='2302098'] like most other Fenderites, I don't buy this one. [/quote] I must have missed this thread the first time around, so I've been trying catch up on it today. I have always loved Herbie and his playing, even before I played bass myself! But you are right, this story has a rather fishy aroma to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyDog Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 OK, let's cut to the chase here. Apparently Herbie F said in an interview: [i]"I bought the bass on Oct. 12, 1959, from Manny's in New York. If you remove the neck you can see Leo Fender's signature and because it's a prototype it has various bits that are not standard. For example, underneath the pickguard they installed what was tantamount to a fuzzbox but it was very primitive - a couple of resistors that cut the signal in half and fouled it up. It had a switch on it and when you tried to cut the roughness out it wouldn't cut out properly, so I took it out."[/i] That's a pretty black/white statement from him there. [i]I bought the bass on Oct. 12, 1959.[/i] So what's the suggestion from the doubters here? Is he a bit confused? Is he a [i]liar[/i]? What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1386609025' post='2302120'] That's a pretty black/white statement from him there. [i]I bought the bass on Oct. 12, 1959.[/i] So what's the suggestion from the doubters here? Is he a bit confused? Is he a [i]liar[/i]? What? [/quote] I can't accurately recall what I did last week, never mind 55 years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1386609549' post='2302135'] I can't accurately recall what I did last week, never mind 55 years ago... [/quote] So, you think it might have been 1958? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 According to Wikipedia A prototype is designed to test and trial a new design to enhance precision. So the jazz enhanced the precision - sorted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1386609025' post='2302120'] OK, let's cut to the chase here. Apparently Herbie F said in an interview: [i]"I bought the bass on Oct. 12, 1959, from Manny's in New York. If you remove the neck you can see Leo Fender's signature and because it's a prototype it has various bits that are not standard. For example, underneath the pickguard they installed what was tantamount to a fuzzbox but it was very primitive - a couple of resistors that cut the signal in half and fouled it up. It had a switch on it and when you tried to cut the roughness out it wouldn't cut out properly, so I took it out."[/i] That's a pretty black/white statement from him there. [i]I bought the bass on Oct. 12, 1959.[/i] So what's the suggestion from the doubters here? Is he a bit confused? Is he a [i]liar[/i]? What? [/quote] I agree. Herbie talked about this specific issue after buying me a pint. He gets visibly irritated when people challenge him over the date...as if he's lying or something. Whatever the books or theory says, if the man bought it in 59, then as far as I and he are concerned, he bought it in 59. He isn't comfortable with the idea that its a prototype either. It was an off the shelf purchase and that's all there is to his story. I see where he's coming from. Why Fender would want to ship a prototype from Fullerton to New York when they could have sold it in LA is anyone's guess and seems implausible. Maybe Fender started making them in 1959 and someone forgot to tell the authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) TBH, I am struggling to give a toss here. Its a lovely old Jazz bass with history written all over it, played by a great bass player and it was made before everything was bar-coded and inter-webbed. So the best we have to go on is the word of the man who has owned it from new. Edited December 9, 2013 by Clarky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 'Herbie Flowers says he bought it on that date, so that's all there is to it' is never going to be the start and end of the discussion. People are passionately interested in the origins of basses like this, so they / we want to talk about them and analyse them. Just like the analysis of a billion other topics across the internet every day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Well that told me. I'm off to double check whether my 2012 M&S boxer shorts were actually made that year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Ah, it was a general comment aimed at lots of people, Clarky. It wasn't a direct reply to you.. honest! As for your boxer shorts, if they have a skunk stripe, they're definitely 2012. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 For myself, the apparent impossibility of reconciling the two positions vis a vis the instrument is a cause for celebration and deep joy. That it is also a trigger for raging conflict between 'experts' is a side-benefit enjoyable to anyone with a healthy mind. Life would be [i]so[/i] dull if everything fitted into neatly labelled categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 By the way, here are some pics of a Fender-endorsed '59 prototype. Presumably, Herbie's followed this... Yep - it has a Precision decal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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