A question for the jazz players...

[BottomEndian]

Every so often on here (and quite a lot on Talkbass), and especially in the context of jazz and fusion players, people will be referred to as "cats", with a personal practice regime known as "shedding". Now, to me, when a cat sheds you get this:

and not an increase in technical proficiency on one's chosen instrument.

My question is this: in the jazz/fusion world, do players genuinely, honestly and unselfconsciously refer to each other as "cats"? And do they "shed"? In the UK? Or is it still very much a US term?

[BTW, I don't mean this as any sort of veiled criticism. I'm just genuinely intrigued as to how and why this particular bit of (1940s? NYC?) hipster slang has percolated through to the present day.]

[OutToPlayJazz]

In the circles I work in, we tend to talk of players as having "great chops" or being a "monster" (ie., very good), but if we started calling eachother "cats", we'd have to shoot eachother in the heads in some sort of oddly ritualistic suicide pact, LOL!

[RhysP]

I can't speak for the Jazz musicians use of the word "Cats", but "Shedding" is a term used not only in jazz. It's a shortened form of "woodshedding", which means to practice your instrument, usually to an obsessive level.

Both are (as far as I'm aware) American terms & as such are completely unforgivable if used by British musicians.

[Bilbo]

I know what the terms mean but have never heard them used in the UK jazz community.

A cat is a musician. Shedding is practising (i.e. spending time 'in the woodshed' (locked away from distractions) developing your musical skills). So a cat who sheds is a musician who practises. It tends to refer to people who are working on addressing a specific technical deficiency or revealed shortcoming (cats who saw a great player like Bird or Trane or who got burned at a jam session would refer to going back into the shed so they could re-emerge as a more competitive player).

I think it was mostly a product of its era (50s/60s) and is probably still lingering around in certain areas of the US. But, no, its not really travelled to Europe that much.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='887293' date='Jul 6 2010, 01:48 PM']In the circles I work in, we tend to talk of players as having "great chops" or being a "monster" (ie., very good), but if we started calling eachother "cats", we'd have to shoot eachother in the heads in some sort of oddly ritualistic suicide pact, LOL! [/quote]
Great chops?

Presumably not a horn player. The hairs get in the way.

Nah, "chops" seems to have made its way across to the rock world too, especially metal. "Monster" reminds me of "mother", which I believe meant the same thing around the time the Mothers of Invention formed. Iiiiiinteresting...

[Earbrass]

For a definitive and authorative explanation....

Edited July 6, 2010 by Earbrass

[lowdown]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='887302' date='Jul 6 2010, 01:53 PM']I think it was mostly a product of its era (50s/60s) and is probably still lingering around in certain areas of the US.[/quote]

Very much that i think.

In fact the World cup winners of 1966 were referred to as "The England Football Team"
And that is a term still lingering around these days.


Garry

Edited July 6, 2010 by lowdown

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='RhysP' post='887298' date='Jul 6 2010, 01:52 PM']Both are (as far as I'm aware) American terms & as such are completely unforgivable if used by British musicians.[/quote]


No, I knew what both terms meant, but it just struck me as a little odd that they might have worked their way across to the UK. Maybe it's our non-UK members using them. It was particularly odd seeing Janek Gwizdala use them when he used to join in here, because he's a Brit, is he not?

[thisnameistaken]

"chops" and "woodshedding" are terms I don't think were in use in the UK in the '90s, they're relatively recent imports from the USA.

I do call people cats from time to time but usually with a negative connotation - "He's a strange cat alright", "I give a wide berth to cats like him", etc. Not sure if that's from the same origin as the "cool" cat? But I probably picked it up in the USA. Thankfully I've just about stopped calling people 'dude' all the time.

Edited July 6, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[urb]

I agree - some of those terms lose a lot in translation - but I think 'shedding' is perfectly OK - it certainly accurately describes the process of trying stuff 'behind closed doors' you'd rather not let other people hear - which is definitely the case for me

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='887354' date='Jul 6 2010, 02:49 PM']Thankfully I've just about stopped calling people 'dude' all the time.[/quote]
I've just started, at the age of 30.

I quite like "cat" as a negative term. Almost as a bowdlerised version of "the other C-word". <mrsdoyle> You know the one, Father. The [b]bad[/b] one. </mrsdoyle>

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='urb' post='887363' date='Jul 6 2010, 02:59 PM']I think 'shedding' is perfectly OK - it certainly accurately describes the process of trying stuff 'behind closed doors' you'd rather not let other people hear[/quote]
In my case, that would be "bomb-sheltering", or possibly "nuclear-bunkering".

[JTUK]

Down with the dudes... !!

tisn't for me..

[bassace]

A lot of jazz stuff came across to the UK in the late 50s/60's tied into the beatnik movement. Some has stayed in our language and some has disappeared.

Dad was used a lot, more than the US Daddio.
Jobsworth appeared in Humph's first autobiograpy
Gig was a lot more specific. It referred to a musician picking up a freelance job. It was not a performance by a band, as it is now.
Ridiculous was a term of approval - as in 'that was a ridiculous solo'.
Dig. There was a joke going round about the beatnik who saw a duck quacking and said 'I don't know the tune but dig those crazy shoes - man.'
Riff
Way out - as in 'my name's exit because I'm way out' (sorry about that)
Hip. Try and find a great song by Dave Frishburg, sung amongst others by Blossom Dearie called 'I'm Hip'. Sums it all up.
Chops was specific to blowers, as in 'great chops' derived from cheek muscles (embochure) and has only recently spread across all players

I'm sure there were a lot of others but my memory's a bit fragile these days.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='bassace' post='887446' date='Jul 6 2010, 03:56 PM']A lot of jazz stuff came across to the UK in the late 50s/60's tied into the beatnik movement. Some has stayed in our language and some has disappeared.

Dad was used a lot, more than the US Daddio.
Jobsworth appeared in Humph's first autobiograpy
Gig was a lot more specific. It referred to a musician picking up a freelance job. It was not a performance by a band, as it is now.
Ridiculous was a term of approval - as in 'that was a ridiculous solo'.
Dig. There was a joke going round about the beatnik who saw a duck quacking and said 'I don't know the tune but dig those crazy shoes - man.'
Riff
Way out - as in 'my name's exit because I'm way out' (sorry about that)
Hip. Try and find a great song by Dave Frishburg, sung amongst others by Blossom Dearie called 'I'm Hip'. Sums it all up.
Chops was specific to blowers, as in 'great chops' derived from cheek muscles (embochure) and has only recently spread across all players

I'm sure there were a lot of others but my memory's a bit fragile these days.[/quote]
Really interesting stuff, thanks. Oddly enough, I use "ridiculous" in much the same way when it comes to outrageously good displays of musicianship.

Here's the Blossom Dearie song:

I love the line "When it was hip to be hep, I was hep". Like you say, it sums it all up.

[Doddy]

I don't really mind the term 'cats'.I occasionally use it when refering to a load of great players-not often,but it does sometimes
slip out. I do say 'chops' and 'shed' quite a lot though,I quite like those terms.
I've also noticed a trend amongst players to refer to soloing as 'blowing',even if the instrument doesn't require it.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='887478' date='Jul 6 2010, 04:22 PM']I've also noticed a trend amongst players to refer to soloing as 'blowing',even if the instrument doesn't require it.[/quote]
Oh yeah, I've seen the term "blowing section", as if it's part of the structure of a piece. What's that about then? Is it where the players... sorry, the cats ( )... take turns soloing? Head - Blowing section - Head - Coda?

[Doddy]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='887480' date='Jul 6 2010, 04:25 PM']Oh yeah, I've seen the term "blowing section", as if it's part of the structure of a piece. What's that about then? Is it where the players... sorry, the cats ( )... take turns soloing? Head - Blowing section - Head - Coda?[/quote]

Yeah pretty much. Normally it's a case of playing the head before 'blowing' over the changes so that the 'cats' can show off their
'chops' that they spent many hours 'shedding',then back to the head.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Doddy' post='887492' date='Jul 6 2010, 04:32 PM']Yeah pretty much. Normally it's a case of playing the head before 'blowing' over the changes so that the 'cats' can show off their 'chops' that they spent many hours 'shedding',then back to the head.[/quote]


Maybe we should have "head" and "changes" in quote marks too. (I'm getting used to "changes", but I still naturally prefer "chord progression".)

[essexbasscat]

never heard of it before.......

[Faithless]

I'm totally cool with those terms, and use them quite a lot, I probably took 'cats, shedding and chops' from the mighty J Gwizdala.. BTW, it seems that he used to show up there, but after some git picked on him here, that incident spread on Talkbass very widely, getting BC some very negative image between American cats.. Just an observation..

and, I believe, won't ever again say 'a jazz musician' - to me, he's a 'cat', that's it

[Cairobill]

"to shed" "woodshed" etc etc has always been used in the UK to mean 'practice' as far as I'm aware.

To use 'cat' to describe a jazz musician is an NYC jazz thing and has been around for decades.