Spyke Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Its harder than it looks or sounds, last year our singer who was in the 2nd year BTEC fell ill with glandular fever and I ended up having to take up singing duties since no other singer in the college would sing Judas Priest! (if it was a fricking beatles song I'd have probably had to pick from a 2 page list of names. The disrespect for Heavy Metal and bias towards beatles pop rock makes me sad) So, first job was finding my voice since I never sang before and that took a lot of practice. Then I had to be able to play and sing in time together which I still haven't fully mastered. This year, I'll probably be doing it more and I thought I'd ask ze pros on here. Anyone done it successfully, apart from Lemmy who is in fact a god in his own right as that has to explain why hasn't died from alllll those drugs and booze, women and insane volume! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1RISnWrFg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1RISnWrFg[/url] Its an early practice session from around easter time before I got my Ibanez, I'm playing my Yamaha in this video. So what I ask is for oppinions on what I can do to improve bass and vocals wise since all I get usually is "oh it sounds alright, keep going " without specific tips to meld off. Does blind practice over and over really work? So, anyway. Apart from that is it possible, is this thread in the right place actually, I was confused as to where it should go. Also I said "fug" instead of "f***" for some reason, never know myself but its a fun original word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 [quote name='Spyke' post='591849' date='Sep 7 2009, 01:40 AM']So what I ask is for oppinions on what I can do to improve bass and vocals wise since all I get usually is "oh it sounds alright, keep going " without specific tips to meld off.[/quote] That's good. FWIW it seems like you're doing well, but it was hard to hear the bass part on that video. Advice: Learn to play the bass part entirely mechanically, so you only really think about the singing. Singing should be 90% of your effort, the bass part should mostly take care of itself. Being super-familiar with the tune you're playing makes this easy, so... [quote name='Spyke' post='591849' date='Sep 7 2009, 01:40 AM']Does blind practice over and over really work?[/quote] Yes, it does. But only if you're correcting your mistakes. Sometimes if you've got a difficult bit of bass playing or a part that's difficult to synchronise with the vocal you might not notice that you're doing one of them wrong, because you're already entirely occupied with trying to do them both right. So record yourself, note any phrases where you're struggling to perform both parts together, slow them down and figure out how the bass notes and syllables fit together, get them in the right order, then go again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 After about 40 years of singing & playing guitar, I thought bass & singing was impossible - I ended up singing the bassline(!!!!) but I've managed to work out a few numbers where the bass is pretty simple. I read somewhere that Sting plays a simpler bassline live compared to what's on the recording..... G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer61 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 [quote name='geoffbyrne' post='591954' date='Sep 7 2009, 09:53 AM']I read somewhere that Sting plays a simpler bassline live compared to what's on the recording..... G.[/quote] As does Tom Araya from Slayer, when singing he plays a basic bass line, in between vocal parts he tends to fancy up the bass playing a tadge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbird13 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Your not the only one struggling with this, at the moment I have to sing some sections in the songs we are playing and I always seem to screw up the bass line as soon as I open my mouth. At the moment I'm trying to solve this by playing the bass lines as normal but speaking the lyrics rather than singing , in this way I'm trying to teach my brain to do 2 things at one time. Something which my wife keeps reminding me men are incapable of doing ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben604 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I've just started doing backing vocals for our covers band and it's one of the most frustrating things I've ever attempted! I've found though after being useless for a while, something just clicks with the rhythms and it gets much easier almost straight away. Playing the basslines until you dont need to think about them is the key, as mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platformstrange Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 [quote name='Spyke' post='591849' date='Sep 7 2009, 12:40 AM']So what I ask is for oppinions on what I can do to improve bass and vocals wise since all I get usually is "oh it sounds alright, keep going " without specific tips to meld off. Does blind practice over and over really work? So, anyway. Apart from that is it possible, is this thread in the right place actually, I was confused as to where it should go. Also I said "fug" instead of "f***" for some reason, never know myself but its a fun original word![/quote] I found [b]nothing but practice[/b] works, maybe with a little practice thrown in for good measure. It seems to me like "thinking without thinking", know the music backwards, almost without looking then it's easier to [b]divide your brain in half[/b]! Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I find it's much easier with basslines I've written myself, and they can get scarily complicated without it affecting my vocals. I do struggle to sing and play reggae, I think because the bassline is more like playing a tune against the drums than grooving with them. I also find that my body plays bass whilst my head and neck sing - and if I can't feel the lows then I find it harder to groove - it's like my ears listen to the vocals whilst the bass is felt through the rest of me, and that's what determines my timing. This was brought home to me when the bass amp at rehearsal broke and I had to have the bass through the vocal PA - I could hear the bass but I couldn't feel it and it was SO much harder to groove and sing simultaneously (though when I wasn't singing I could groove just fine). Strange but true... If you can play the drums or piano it'll help - it's about doing two things at once that though different are complimentary. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alant Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 [quote name='ben604' post='591985' date='Sep 7 2009, 10:51 AM']I've just started doing backing vocals for our covers band and it's one of the most frustrating things I've ever attempted! I've found though after being useless for a while, something just clicks with the rhythms and it gets much easier almost straight away. Playing the basslines until you dont need to think about them is the key, as mentioned above.[/quote] I agree, again as someone who has started doing some backing vocals for a covers band. Being of the "older generation", one of my bass heroes is Martin Turner of Wishbone Ash who incredibly (IMO) manages to sing and play fairly complex bass lines at the same time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyke Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 [quote name='alant' post='592211' date='Sep 7 2009, 04:34 PM']I agree, again as someone who has started doing some backing vocals for a covers band. Being of the "older generation", one of my bass heroes is Martin Turner of Wishbone Ash who incredibly (IMO) manages to sing and play fairly complex bass lines at the same time![/quote] Saw them in Newcastle last Halloween, I was gobstruck by not just the bass but the guitar work. With my heavy metal hat on there's Blind Guardian, venom and Motorhead that also have Bass+vocals musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Don't forget though, that Cronos from Venom, and Lemmy, were both guitarists, that switched to bass......Well, Lemmy still is a guitarist, just plays four strings instead of six! I agree though, Lemmy is GOD, and it is a miracle he is still alive, given his lifestyle How about Les Claypool? Man that guy's good at singing, and playing bass As for me? I'm crap at it! Play the bass OK, my singing is a little hit and miss - I seem to be able to sing really well one day, and then sound dreadful the next! Put the two together, and they both sound awful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyke Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Didn't know they were guitarists originally. I sing terribly but if its the only way we can do Heavy Metal so be it. Me and my friends play whatever the curriculum gives us as it is in the course so metal is a reward and is as musically diverse and viable as playing 12 bar blues, Blondie, Pogues or Beatles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateybass Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Good topic Playing bass and singing together is more difficult than guitarists give credit for!! I reckon this is because the bass is a rhythmical and melodic instrument, as is a vocal line. In effect we are trying to play two melodic and rhythmic lines which compete across beats and notes. Oddly, I find it very easy to sing whilst strumming a guitar or drumming but have to really think about both parts when singing and... er... bassing. On the whole, having done it for a few years it's not too difficult for most of the time but there is usually at least one bit in every song which takes a bit of brain splitting. One technique I've found to be useful is when I find a tricky bit, to play the bass line and sing the vocal very slowly until I can work out how they go together, practice that section repeatedly slowly and then gradually speed up again till I can do it at normal speed. It's a similar method to learning that tricky bass lick until you've programmed your motive memory. Someone did tell me once that one way of training the brain is to play a bass line whilst reading aloud from a book or magazine and make the spoken words make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gafbass02 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Its impossible I tells ya! The devils work! If I try it I'm prone to falling over. Seriously, it's like something has to give!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjkennelly Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 In my personal experience it best thing to do is to know the bass part inside out. Then you just focus on singing and try and let the bass come naturally. After doing backing vocals for my last band I found the transition to lead vocals quite easy when our singer quit 3 days before a gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBunny Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yolanda Charles covered this in a workshop at last years Bass Day. Her advice was to learn both parts seperately and then bring them together SLOWLY. She can play some astonishing bass lines whilst singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Don't dismiss the beatles too much, some of Macca's basslines that he sung over aren't all that simple. I can happily play All My Loving, I can sing it. Both together? hopeless...and don't get me started on the stuff C Squire and G Lee manage to sing and play simultaneously, not much simplification for live versions either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyke Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Well, if its Heavy Metal stuff me and the lads will do in the future I'm going to have a hard time, playing something slow and melodic and singing is far easier than playing rageing heavy metal, suppose I can't have it easy now can I! Being the bass player I got do distract the drummer and not persuade the guitarist to extend or shorten a solo. aaah... good times ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='591859' date='Sep 7 2009, 03:06 AM']Advice: Learn to play the bass part entirely mechanically, so you only really think about the singing. Singing should be 90% of your effort, the bass part should mostly take care of itself. Being super-familiar with the tune you're playing makes this easy[/quote] + the 1. [quote name='KevB' post='592767' date='Sep 8 2009, 11:46 AM']Don't dismiss the beatles too much, some of Macca's basslines that he sung over aren't all that simple. I can happily play All My Loving, I can sing it. Both together? hopeless...[/quote] Funnily enough, was thinking the same thing the other night while watching that docco about the Beatles' first trip to America. He's playing some complex bass parts and singing lead over the top, with no stage monitors and at one point, his bass amp facing the other way! Makes you realise how spoiled we all are now, worrying about whether to get in-ears or personal monitors. Edited September 8, 2009 by stingrayfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipper Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='591859' date='Sep 7 2009, 03:06 AM']But only if you're correcting your mistakes.[/quote] This is important, practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent as my mother used to say! Be careful you are not practicing something wrong else it will be difficult to correct later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I do it easily now. No problems at all. The reason? I practised. When I do - the vocal comes first in my mind , not the bassline. I think that's correct - the melody and lyrics are what makes a song - far more important than the bassline. It never fails to amaze me - folk play bass 2 hrs a day for 5 years and get pretty good at it - they have a go at one song , singing , and say they're crap - end of !!! You were crap at bass too when you first picked it up. I truly don't believe in gifts or natural ability - maybe the timbre of a voice is natural , fair enough , but the rest is just putting in the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Bumped, as per Alex's post See also: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=38704"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=38704[/url] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3485"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3485[/url] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=30627"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=30627[/url] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=50179"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=50179[/url] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=46829"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=46829[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I'm really struggling just doing BVs! I've never done 'em before. But since we became a trio very recently I've no real choice. It must be practice at the end of the day. On our older songs that I 've played for a couple of years it's not too bad now. The newer ones, especially where I have to sing and do something fiddly and/or play on the off beat are proving a challenge. The only advice I was given was try and 'find' the first note and practice singing in the car to the stereo. I feel I need a longer journey to work. I've decided to root note it on my sung parts live until I've got it nailed. My excuse is I'm 46 and it's harder to learn new skills.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Our guitarist was quite reluctant to do backing vocals but after a year or so of trying he's got pretty damned good, especially considering he's often playing quite syncopated guitar parts. Last night was my last rehearsal as a lead singer and he did some great subtle harmonies against my parts - one more gig with this line-up (next Thursday at the Prince Albert by Brighton station if anyone's about!) and then we hope to have a proper singer front centre plus the two of us on proper backing vocals and our drummer on comedy vocal noises! If you get an opportunity to try doing backing vocals, give it a go, it really is good fun and if you're having a moment of tuning/lyrical paranoia you can just back off from the mic. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 After doing BVs for over ayear now I am finding it easier to do, but sometimes the groove is so different to the vocals that I just can't do it, so I just play the bass line (as is right and proper of course). Long and short of it is, the more you do it, the easier it becomes, as does finding a harmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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